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borislvinПоследние новости расследования (пропущенное восстановлю на неделе).
Характерно, что статья сфокусирована на том, что следствие пытается доказать наличие большого заговора и причастность НМВ. Дескать, это был вовсе не low-budget operation. То есть подразумевается, что естественным предположением должно было быть как раз мнение о малобюджетной. В реальности, однако, линия правительства и печати это мнение никогда во внимание не принимала - хотя оно отнюдь не опровергнуто.
Кроме того - если я не чего-то не пропустил - здесь впервые сообщается о том, что была найдена еще одна машина, оставленная террористами в аэропорту, на этот раз в Вашингтоне. До этого упоминали только бостонскую. А ведь это как раз и свидетельствует в пользу малобюджетности операции...
линк
U.S. Develops Picture of Overseas Plot
Hijackers Spent $500,000; at Least 4 Trained in Afghan Camps
By Dan Eggen and Bob Woodward
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, September 29, 2001; Page A01
The terrorists who carried out the Sept. 11 attacks were bankrolled with $500,000 from overseas that financed an operation planned and launched several years ago in Germany, with crucial support in Britain, the United Arab Emirates and Afghanistan, senior government officials have concluded.
U.S. investigators have determined that at least four of the 19 suspected hijackers were trained at camps in Afghanistan run by Osama bin Laden, whose al Qaeda network is believed responsible for the assaults on New York and Washington. They also have tentatively concluded there are links between bin Laden and most of the other hijackers, according to information gathered by the Justice Department, FBI and CIA.
Government investigators are becoming increasingly convinced that one or two other hijackings were in the works, officials said, and are focusing on three men in U.S. custody who received flight training. One was detained while seeking flight simulator training in Minnesota before the hijackings, and two others were arrested on a train in Texas after departing on a jet that was grounded after the attacks, sources said.
Government officials said other people in the United States might have provided minor assistance or had knowledge that a terrorist operation was underway. But the FBI has found little evidence so far that the teams of hijackers received much support here, sources said.
"There seems to be no U.S. mastermind," one official said.
The Justice Department has cast a global dragnet over the last two weeks in a hunt for accomplices. It is narrowing its criminal investigation to a number of individuals and is beginning to formulate criminal charges that could be filed against them, sources said. But a senior Justice official declined to predict when the first indictment might be handed down.
"We are past the first phase, and we are beginning to sharpen and focus the investigation," one Justice official said. "You don't get smoking guns in a case like this. The key is going to be in the details, in putting together the pieces, and we've gone a long way to doing that. . . . We're looking with particularity at a number of people."
The disclosures provide the most complete picture yet of the direction and scope of the U.S. investigation into the deadliest terror attack in American history, which has left 6,500 people missing or dead in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania. The hijackings have led to arrests on every continent but Antarctica.
In tracing $500,000 flowing into U.S. bank accounts used by Mohamed Atta and other suspected members of the hijacking teams, the FBI has documented numerous large cash withdrawals and a long trail of hotels, rental cars and airplane trips that largely dispel any notion of an austere plot, a senior government official said. Previous reports have said the attacks cost no more than $200,000.
Some of the money used to prepare the attack has already been linked to accounts in the Middle East, the source said, and investigators have documented instances of simultaneous withdrawals from the same account in different cities.
"This was not a low-budget operation," the official said. "There is quite a bit of money coming in, and they are spending quite a bit of money."
Investigators are convinced that the details of the terror plot were hatched in Hamburg, Germany, where Atta and two other suspected hijackers, Marwan Al-Shehhi and Ziad Samir Jarrah, are believed to have run a terrorist cell out of a second-floor student apartment.
The FBI is doubling its contingent of agents working on the investigation in Germany, in the belief that the trail will lead from there to the Middle East, one official said. The initial concept for the Sept. 11 attacks likely came from Afghanistan, where bin Laden is believed to be hiding, another official said.
Investigators have found that the suspected leaders in the plot moved in and out of the United States beginning at least 18 months ago, with lower-level hijackers not arriving until this year. Atta returned to Germany at least twice after arriving in the United States, a source said.
"There were two groups on each plane," one senior official said. "You've got the brains, who are the pilots and the leaders, and then you have the muscle coming in later on. They were the ones who held the passengers at bay."
The FBI is deeply suspicious of the circumstances surrounding three key men who have been detained in the case. Zacarias Moussaoui was taken into custody in Minnesota in August after he attempted to pay cash to learn how to steer, but not take off or land, a jumbo jet.
Moussaoui is not cooperating with authorities.
Two others, Mohammed Jaweed Azmath and Ayub Ali Khan, were detained on an Amtrak train Sept. 12 in Fort Worth with hair dye, large amounts of cash and box-cutter knives like the ones used in the hijackings. The men, who had lived in Jersey City, had flown on a plane from Newark to St. Louis that was grounded after the attacks. Both men had flight training, one source said.
FBI agents have combed the passenger manifest on that flight and have not found anyone else who is believed to be a potential hijacker, an official said.
Adding another important element to the global investigation, British authorities yesterday accused an Algerian pilot of training four of the hijackers, including the apparent pilot of the jet that crashed into the Pentagon.
During an extradition hearing in London, British prosecutor Arvinda Sambir suggested that Lotfi Raissi, 27, may have been a knowing participant in the terrorist plot, and that U.S. authorities might charge him with conspiracy to murder.
"The hope is that he will be able to tell us who planned what and when," added one senior U.S. official.
However, the British prosecutor left open the possibility that Raissi may have instructed the hijackers at an Arizona flight school without knowing their intentions. Defense lawyer Richard Egan said Raissi "adamantly denies any involvement in the recent appalling tragedies."
In a sign of U.S. investigators' intense interest in the case, eight FBI agents attended the hearing at Bow Street Magistrates' Court. The court ordered Raissi held in jail for another week, pending a second hearing on the U.S. extradition request.
The original request, issued June 19, said Raissi had given false information on an application for a U.S. pilot's license. Now, authorities want to pursue his alleged connections with the hijackers.
Dressed in a white track-suit top and pants, Raissi spoke only to confirm his name during the brief hearing.
Sambir said that Raissi, who was arrested in Britain last week, had visited the United States several times this year. The evidence against him, she said, includes a videotape of him flying on June 23 from Las Vegas to Phoenix with Hani Hanjour, who is believed to have been the pilot of American Airlines Flight 77, the plane that hit the Pentagon.
In June, Hanjour was a member of the flight simulator club of the Sawyer School of Aviation in Phoenix, according to the school's spokeswoman. Raissi was also a member of the Phoenix flight simulator club for five months this year and used a flight simulator at a Phoenix area airport at the same time as Hanjour, according to the aviation school.
"He was a lead instructor of four of the pilots that were responsible for the hijackings," Sambir said in court. "We say he was there to ensure that the pilots were capable and trained for this purpose," she added.
Raissi received a U.S. commercial pilot's license in January 1999, with a rating to fly a Boeing 737. Two days later, he was certified as a ground instructor, and in March 1999, he received a license to be a flight instructor.
Raissi lived in a Phoenix apartment complex and listed himself as both a student and employee at Westwind Aviation Academy, a flight school at the Phoenix Deer Valley Airport, according to the East Valley Tribune, a Mesa, Ariz., newspaper. Raissi has said he trained at Westwind in 1997 and 1998, according to documents the FBI showed to another local flight school director.
Westwind was acquired two years ago by Pan Am International Flight Academy, a Florida company. Todd Huvard, a vice president at Pan Am International, said the company was cooperating with the FBI but would not release any information to the press.
Last week, police searched Raissi's apartment in the village of Colnbrook, Berkshire, near London's Heathrow airport, and took a flight manual and a pilot's logbook that had several pages torn out, authorities said.
In an odd twist, a database search of public records shows that Raissi had used the Social Security number of a Jersey City woman who died in 1991. The woman, Dorothy Hansen, was a retired factory worker.
Hansen's grandson, Carl G. Hansen III, 37, said he had never heard of Raissi. Joyce Mastrangelo, Dorothy Hansen's daughter, said she was astounded.
"Oh my God, how did he get that?" Mastrangelo said. "My mother has been dead 10 years."
In other developments yesterday:
• Attorney General John D. Ashcroft released a four-page letter in Arabic that was found among the belongings of men on three of the hijacked jetliners. The letter includes Islamic prayers, speaks of death for a glorious cause, and reminds the reader not to forget his knives and passport.
The letter, first detailed in yesterday's Washington Post, demonstrates how the Muslim hijackers "grossly perverted the Islamic faith," said Ashcroft, who repeated that Muslims in the United States "deserve dignity and respect."
Identical letters were discovered in three places. One was found inside a car parked at Dulles International Airport, starting point of the flight that crashed into the Pentagon. The second was found at the Pennsylvania crash site of United Flight 93. The third was found in the Boston luggage of Atta, who was aboard one of the planes that plunged into the World Trade Center.
• Ashcroft said more than 480 people have been arrested or detained during the first 18 days of a quest he has called the largest criminal investigation in the nation's history.
Although bin Laden has been identified by President Bush as the sponsor of the Sept. 11 attacks, Ashcroft said investigators "have not ruled out the participation of any individual or any organizations in this attack."
• FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III contested reports that FBI agents have posed questions about political beliefs to Muslims, Sikhs and Arab Americans who have been stopped or detained as part of the investigation. He said questioning focuses on relationships with the 19 suspected hijackers and their associates, and "may cross over into relationships that may have sprung out of attendance at, for instance, religious meetings. But there is no effort to delve into either the political or the religious beliefs of individuals."
• In Cedar Rapids, Iowa, the Secret Service arrested Youssef Hmimssa, who had been wanted under the alias Jalali. Authorities said they believe he may have knowledge of a terrorist threat against former defense secretary William Cohen.
Hmimssa was indicted Thursday, along with two other men, by a federal grand jury in Detroit on two counts of fraud. During a Sept. 18 search of a Detroit apartment, FBI agents seized false immigration papers and a fake passport bearing the name Michael Saisa and a picture believed to be that of Hmimssa or Jalali, two of five aliases cited by authorities. He was also wanted in Chicago on charges of financial-related fraud and false identification charges.
Agents also found a day planner that refers to the "American defense minister" and contains an apparent sketch of the U.S. air base in Incirlik, Turkey. Cohen canceled a visit to Incirlik last December after learning of a "credible threat against him," according to a former Department of Defense officials.
Special correspondent Adi Bloom in London; staff reporters Sari Horwitz, Lena Sun, Scott Higham, Fredrick Kunkle, Allan Lengel, Peter Slevin and Marcia Slacum Greene, and researchers Bobbye Pratt and Margot Williams contributed to this report.
Характерно, что статья сфокусирована на том, что следствие пытается доказать наличие большого заговора и причастность НМВ. Дескать, это был вовсе не low-budget operation. То есть подразумевается, что естественным предположением должно было быть как раз мнение о малобюджетной. В реальности, однако, линия правительства и печати это мнение никогда во внимание не принимала - хотя оно отнюдь не опровергнуто.
Кроме того - если я не чего-то не пропустил - здесь впервые сообщается о том, что была найдена еще одна машина, оставленная террористами в аэропорту, на этот раз в Вашингтоне. До этого упоминали только бостонскую. А ведь это как раз и свидетельствует в пользу малобюджетности операции...
линк
U.S. Develops Picture of Overseas Plot
Hijackers Spent $500,000; at Least 4 Trained in Afghan Camps
By Dan Eggen and Bob Woodward
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, September 29, 2001; Page A01
The terrorists who carried out the Sept. 11 attacks were bankrolled with $500,000 from overseas that financed an operation planned and launched several years ago in Germany, with crucial support in Britain, the United Arab Emirates and Afghanistan, senior government officials have concluded.
U.S. investigators have determined that at least four of the 19 suspected hijackers were trained at camps in Afghanistan run by Osama bin Laden, whose al Qaeda network is believed responsible for the assaults on New York and Washington. They also have tentatively concluded there are links between bin Laden and most of the other hijackers, according to information gathered by the Justice Department, FBI and CIA.
Government investigators are becoming increasingly convinced that one or two other hijackings were in the works, officials said, and are focusing on three men in U.S. custody who received flight training. One was detained while seeking flight simulator training in Minnesota before the hijackings, and two others were arrested on a train in Texas after departing on a jet that was grounded after the attacks, sources said.
Government officials said other people in the United States might have provided minor assistance or had knowledge that a terrorist operation was underway. But the FBI has found little evidence so far that the teams of hijackers received much support here, sources said.
"There seems to be no U.S. mastermind," one official said.
The Justice Department has cast a global dragnet over the last two weeks in a hunt for accomplices. It is narrowing its criminal investigation to a number of individuals and is beginning to formulate criminal charges that could be filed against them, sources said. But a senior Justice official declined to predict when the first indictment might be handed down.
"We are past the first phase, and we are beginning to sharpen and focus the investigation," one Justice official said. "You don't get smoking guns in a case like this. The key is going to be in the details, in putting together the pieces, and we've gone a long way to doing that. . . . We're looking with particularity at a number of people."
The disclosures provide the most complete picture yet of the direction and scope of the U.S. investigation into the deadliest terror attack in American history, which has left 6,500 people missing or dead in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania. The hijackings have led to arrests on every continent but Antarctica.
In tracing $500,000 flowing into U.S. bank accounts used by Mohamed Atta and other suspected members of the hijacking teams, the FBI has documented numerous large cash withdrawals and a long trail of hotels, rental cars and airplane trips that largely dispel any notion of an austere plot, a senior government official said. Previous reports have said the attacks cost no more than $200,000.
Some of the money used to prepare the attack has already been linked to accounts in the Middle East, the source said, and investigators have documented instances of simultaneous withdrawals from the same account in different cities.
"This was not a low-budget operation," the official said. "There is quite a bit of money coming in, and they are spending quite a bit of money."
Investigators are convinced that the details of the terror plot were hatched in Hamburg, Germany, where Atta and two other suspected hijackers, Marwan Al-Shehhi and Ziad Samir Jarrah, are believed to have run a terrorist cell out of a second-floor student apartment.
The FBI is doubling its contingent of agents working on the investigation in Germany, in the belief that the trail will lead from there to the Middle East, one official said. The initial concept for the Sept. 11 attacks likely came from Afghanistan, where bin Laden is believed to be hiding, another official said.
Investigators have found that the suspected leaders in the plot moved in and out of the United States beginning at least 18 months ago, with lower-level hijackers not arriving until this year. Atta returned to Germany at least twice after arriving in the United States, a source said.
"There were two groups on each plane," one senior official said. "You've got the brains, who are the pilots and the leaders, and then you have the muscle coming in later on. They were the ones who held the passengers at bay."
The FBI is deeply suspicious of the circumstances surrounding three key men who have been detained in the case. Zacarias Moussaoui was taken into custody in Minnesota in August after he attempted to pay cash to learn how to steer, but not take off or land, a jumbo jet.
Moussaoui is not cooperating with authorities.
Two others, Mohammed Jaweed Azmath and Ayub Ali Khan, were detained on an Amtrak train Sept. 12 in Fort Worth with hair dye, large amounts of cash and box-cutter knives like the ones used in the hijackings. The men, who had lived in Jersey City, had flown on a plane from Newark to St. Louis that was grounded after the attacks. Both men had flight training, one source said.
FBI agents have combed the passenger manifest on that flight and have not found anyone else who is believed to be a potential hijacker, an official said.
Adding another important element to the global investigation, British authorities yesterday accused an Algerian pilot of training four of the hijackers, including the apparent pilot of the jet that crashed into the Pentagon.
During an extradition hearing in London, British prosecutor Arvinda Sambir suggested that Lotfi Raissi, 27, may have been a knowing participant in the terrorist plot, and that U.S. authorities might charge him with conspiracy to murder.
"The hope is that he will be able to tell us who planned what and when," added one senior U.S. official.
However, the British prosecutor left open the possibility that Raissi may have instructed the hijackers at an Arizona flight school without knowing their intentions. Defense lawyer Richard Egan said Raissi "adamantly denies any involvement in the recent appalling tragedies."
In a sign of U.S. investigators' intense interest in the case, eight FBI agents attended the hearing at Bow Street Magistrates' Court. The court ordered Raissi held in jail for another week, pending a second hearing on the U.S. extradition request.
The original request, issued June 19, said Raissi had given false information on an application for a U.S. pilot's license. Now, authorities want to pursue his alleged connections with the hijackers.
Dressed in a white track-suit top and pants, Raissi spoke only to confirm his name during the brief hearing.
Sambir said that Raissi, who was arrested in Britain last week, had visited the United States several times this year. The evidence against him, she said, includes a videotape of him flying on June 23 from Las Vegas to Phoenix with Hani Hanjour, who is believed to have been the pilot of American Airlines Flight 77, the plane that hit the Pentagon.
In June, Hanjour was a member of the flight simulator club of the Sawyer School of Aviation in Phoenix, according to the school's spokeswoman. Raissi was also a member of the Phoenix flight simulator club for five months this year and used a flight simulator at a Phoenix area airport at the same time as Hanjour, according to the aviation school.
"He was a lead instructor of four of the pilots that were responsible for the hijackings," Sambir said in court. "We say he was there to ensure that the pilots were capable and trained for this purpose," she added.
Raissi received a U.S. commercial pilot's license in January 1999, with a rating to fly a Boeing 737. Two days later, he was certified as a ground instructor, and in March 1999, he received a license to be a flight instructor.
Raissi lived in a Phoenix apartment complex and listed himself as both a student and employee at Westwind Aviation Academy, a flight school at the Phoenix Deer Valley Airport, according to the East Valley Tribune, a Mesa, Ariz., newspaper. Raissi has said he trained at Westwind in 1997 and 1998, according to documents the FBI showed to another local flight school director.
Westwind was acquired two years ago by Pan Am International Flight Academy, a Florida company. Todd Huvard, a vice president at Pan Am International, said the company was cooperating with the FBI but would not release any information to the press.
Last week, police searched Raissi's apartment in the village of Colnbrook, Berkshire, near London's Heathrow airport, and took a flight manual and a pilot's logbook that had several pages torn out, authorities said.
In an odd twist, a database search of public records shows that Raissi had used the Social Security number of a Jersey City woman who died in 1991. The woman, Dorothy Hansen, was a retired factory worker.
Hansen's grandson, Carl G. Hansen III, 37, said he had never heard of Raissi. Joyce Mastrangelo, Dorothy Hansen's daughter, said she was astounded.
"Oh my God, how did he get that?" Mastrangelo said. "My mother has been dead 10 years."
In other developments yesterday:
• Attorney General John D. Ashcroft released a four-page letter in Arabic that was found among the belongings of men on three of the hijacked jetliners. The letter includes Islamic prayers, speaks of death for a glorious cause, and reminds the reader not to forget his knives and passport.
The letter, first detailed in yesterday's Washington Post, demonstrates how the Muslim hijackers "grossly perverted the Islamic faith," said Ashcroft, who repeated that Muslims in the United States "deserve dignity and respect."
Identical letters were discovered in three places. One was found inside a car parked at Dulles International Airport, starting point of the flight that crashed into the Pentagon. The second was found at the Pennsylvania crash site of United Flight 93. The third was found in the Boston luggage of Atta, who was aboard one of the planes that plunged into the World Trade Center.
• Ashcroft said more than 480 people have been arrested or detained during the first 18 days of a quest he has called the largest criminal investigation in the nation's history.
Although bin Laden has been identified by President Bush as the sponsor of the Sept. 11 attacks, Ashcroft said investigators "have not ruled out the participation of any individual or any organizations in this attack."
• FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III contested reports that FBI agents have posed questions about political beliefs to Muslims, Sikhs and Arab Americans who have been stopped or detained as part of the investigation. He said questioning focuses on relationships with the 19 suspected hijackers and their associates, and "may cross over into relationships that may have sprung out of attendance at, for instance, religious meetings. But there is no effort to delve into either the political or the religious beliefs of individuals."
• In Cedar Rapids, Iowa, the Secret Service arrested Youssef Hmimssa, who had been wanted under the alias Jalali. Authorities said they believe he may have knowledge of a terrorist threat against former defense secretary William Cohen.
Hmimssa was indicted Thursday, along with two other men, by a federal grand jury in Detroit on two counts of fraud. During a Sept. 18 search of a Detroit apartment, FBI agents seized false immigration papers and a fake passport bearing the name Michael Saisa and a picture believed to be that of Hmimssa or Jalali, two of five aliases cited by authorities. He was also wanted in Chicago on charges of financial-related fraud and false identification charges.
Agents also found a day planner that refers to the "American defense minister" and contains an apparent sketch of the U.S. air base in Incirlik, Turkey. Cohen canceled a visit to Incirlik last December after learning of a "credible threat against him," according to a former Department of Defense officials.
Special correspondent Adi Bloom in London; staff reporters Sari Horwitz, Lena Sun, Scott Higham, Fredrick Kunkle, Allan Lengel, Peter Slevin and Marcia Slacum Greene, and researchers Bobbye Pratt and Margot Williams contributed to this report.
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no subject
Date: 2001-09-29 03:00 pm (UTC)à ãäå ïðîëåãàåò òà ãðàíèöà, ïî êîòîðîé ïðîõîäèò ðàçäåë ìåæäó ìàëî- è êðóïíîáþäæåòíîé? È êàê âû îöåíèâàåòå çàòðàòû, ê ïðèìåðó, íà ïîëó÷åíèå êîäà ïðåçèäåíòñêîãî ñàìîëåòà, åñëè ýòè êîäîì ìîæíî áûëî çàâëàäåòü êàê çà ìèëèîííóþ âçÿòêó, òàê è îïèðàÿñü íà äîáðîâîëüíûõ, ò.å. áåñêîðûñòíûõ ñîó÷àñòíèêîâ? ß íå ïîëåìèçèðóþ, ÿ ïðîñòî õî÷ó óÿñíèòü ñóòü âîïðîñà è òðàêòîâêó òåðìèíîâ. Åñëè ýòà òåìà ãäå-òî óæå îáñóæäàëàñü, âïîëíå õâàòèò è ññûëêè.
no subject
Date: 2001-09-29 03:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2001-09-29 03:48 pm (UTC) äàííîì æå ñëó÷àå ó÷àñòèå òåíåâîé îðãàíèçàöèè, áóäó÷è âïîëíå âîçìîæíûì, äëÿ îáúÿñíåíèÿ âñåãî äåëî îñòàåòñÿ èçëèøíèì.
Íàïðèìåð, â ñòàòüå ãîâîðèòñÿ, ÷òî ÷åòâåðî òåððîðèñòîâ, äåñêàòü, ó÷èëèñü â àôãàíñêèõ ëàãåðÿõ. ×åìó îíè ìîãëè òàì íàó÷èòüñÿ? Êàê ðóëèòü áîèíãîì? Êàê ïîëüçîâàòüñÿ êðåäèòíîé êàðòî÷êîé? Êàê óïðàâëÿòüñÿ êàíöåëÿðñêèì íîæîì? Òî åñòü äàæå èõ ïðåáûâàíèå â òàêîì ëàãåðå íèêàê íå îêàçûâàåòñÿ ñâÿçàííûì ñ ðàññëåäóåìûì ïðåñòóïëåíèåì.
no subject
Date: 2001-09-29 06:00 pm (UTC) ýòèõ ëàãåðÿõ ó÷àò áûòü òåððîðèñòàìè, øàõèäàìè. Ó÷àò áûòü.
Ïî÷òè ëþáîãî è âåçäå ìîæíî íàó÷èòü òåõíîëîãè÷åñêèì ïðè¸ìàì. Íî áûòü øàõèäîì, òåððîðèñòîì, òî åñòü èìåííî îïðåäåë¸ííîìó ìûøëåíèþ, îáó÷àþò â ýòèõ, ó ÷¸ðòà íà êóëè÷êàõ, ëàãåðÿõ.
no subject
Date: 2001-09-29 06:17 pm (UTC)×òî, êòî-òî èç ïàëåñòèíñêèõ òåððîðèñòîâ-ñàìîóáèéö åçäèë â Àôãàíèñòàí? Êòî-òî èç òàìèëüñêèõ òåððîðèñòîâ-ñàìîóáèéö åçäèë â Àôãàíèñòàí? Êòî-òî ÂÎÎÁÙÅ èç òåððîðèñòîâ-ñàìîóáèéö ãîòîâèëñÿ â Àôãàíèñòàíå?
Áîëåå òîãî, âåäóùèå äåÿòåëè ýòîãî òåðàêòà ïðîâîäèëè âðåìÿ, ñóäÿ ïî âñåìó, ìåæäó Ãåðìàíèåé, Åãèïòîì, Àðàâèåé è Øòàòàìè - áåçî âñÿêîãî Àôãàíèñòàíà.
Ïðî ýòè ëàãåðÿ ïèñàëè, ÷òî òàì ãîòîâÿò, äåñêàòü, âñÿêèõ ìèíåðîâ-ñàïåðîâ, ïîäðûâíèêîâ-ðàäèñòîâ, ñïåöíàçîâöåâ èñëàìñêèõ. Íèêòî ýòèõ ñïåöíàçîâöåâ, åñëè ïî ïðàâäå, íå âèäåë, êðîìå ßñòðæåìáñêîãî, íî â äàííîì ñëó÷àå è îíè íå ïîòðåáîâàëèñü.
no subject
Date: 2001-09-29 06:57 pm (UTC)×òî, êòî-òî èç ïàëåñòèíñêèõ òåððîðèñòîâ-ñàìîóáèéö åçäèë â Àôãàíèñòàí? Êòî-òî èç òàìèëüñêèõ òåððîðèñòîâ-ñàìîóáèéö åçäèë â Àôãàíèñòàí? Êòî-òî ÂÎÎÁÙÅ èç òåððîðèñòîâ-ñàìîóáèéö ãîòîâèëñÿ â Àôãàíèñòàíå?
Ëàãåðÿ ïîäãîòîâêè òåððîðèñòîâ - òîëüêî óçëû â ñåòè ïîäãîòîâêè áîéöîâ. Ñåòü èíòåðíàöèîíàëüíà. Îäèí è òîò æå ÷åëîâåê ìîæåò áûòü â íåñêîëüêèõ ëàãåðÿõ. Ëèâèÿ - Ëèâàí - Àôãàíèñòàí è òàê äàëåå.  êàæäîì êîíêðåòíîì ëàãåðå ìîæåò ïðîõîäèòü ñïåöèôè÷åñêîå îáó÷åíèå.
Ãðóáî ãîâîðÿ, îáó÷åíèå äåëèòñÿ íà òåîðèòè÷åñêóþ è ïðàêòè÷åñêóþ ÷àñòè. ß ãîâîðþ î òåîðèòè÷åñêîé ÷àñòè.  ïåðâóþ î÷åðåäü çàêëþ÷àþùóþ â ñåáå èäåîëîãè÷åñêóþ ïîäãîòîâêó. Òàêæå èçó÷àþñÿ êîíñïèðàöèÿ, ñâÿçü è òîìó ïîäîáíûå äèñöèïëèíû. ×òî-òî òèïà "îáùèé áàêàëàâðèàò". Äàëåå èä¸ò ñïåöèàëèçàöèÿ (â äàííîì êîíêðåòíîì ñëó÷àå - âîçäóøíûå ïàññàæèðñêèå ëèíèè), ïðè÷¸ì ñïåöèàëèçàöèþ, êàê âû âèäèòå, ìîæíî ïðîéòè â òåõ æå ÑØÀ.
Áîëåå òîãî, âåäóùèå äåÿòåëè ýòîãî òåðàêòà ïðîâîäèëè âðåìÿ, ñóäÿ ïî âñåìó, ìåæäó Ãåðìàíèåé, Åãèïòîì, Àðàâèåé è Øòàòàìè - áåçî âñÿêîãî Àôãàíèñòàíà.
Âîò, ñêàæåì, óïðàëåíèå Âàøåãî áàíêà íàõîäèòñÿ â Í-É, à âû âñå äåëà âåä¸òå â Âàøèòîíå. Âàì íå êàæåòñÿ ñòðàííûì òàêîå ïîëîæåíèå âåùåé?
Ïðî ýòè ëàãåðÿ ïèñàëè, ÷òî òàì ãîòîâÿò, äåñêàòü, âñÿêèõ ìèíåðîâ-ñàïåðîâ, ïîäðûâíèêîâ-ðàäèñòîâ, ñïåöíàçîâöåâ èñëàìñêèõ. Íèêòî ýòèõ ñïåöíàçîâöåâ, åñëè ïî ïðàâäå, íå âèäåë, êðîìå ßñòðæåìáñêîãî, íî â äàííîì ñëó÷àå è îíè íå ïîòðåáîâàëèñü.
Âîò ýòîé ôðàçû ÿ íå ïîíÿë. Âû èìååòå â âèäó, ÷òî èõ (ñïåöíàçîâöåâ) òàì íå ãîòîâÿò?
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Date: 2001-09-29 07:20 pm (UTC)Ïðè íàñòîÿùåé êîíñïèðàöèè îíè ïðåæäå âñåãî ñåëè áû â ñàìîëåòû ñ ÷èñòûìè äîêóìåíòàìè. Èõ áû, êîíå÷íî, âñå ðàâíî âû÷èñëèëè - ïðîøåðñòèëè áû ìàíèôåñòû, îòñåêëè áû ðåàëüíûõ ïàññàæèðîâ, ïðîâåðèëè áû ñêðûòûå êàìåðû â àýðîïîðòó è ïîëó÷èëè áû êàðòèíêè òåððîðèñòîâ. Íî ýòî çàíÿëî áû ìíîãî áîëüøå âðåìåíè. Êðîìå òîãî, ïî îäíîé êàðòèíêå áåç èìåí áûëî áû ìíîãî òðóäíåå îòñëåäèòü èõ ïðåäûäóùèå ïîõîæäåíèÿ.
Ïëàòèëè áû îíè èëè êåøåì, èëè êàæäûé ðàç ðàçíûìè êàðòî÷êàìè.  àýðîïîðò áû ïðèåõàëè íå íà ðåíòîâàíîé ìàøåíå, à íà àâòîáóñå, à ëó÷øå - íà ìàøèíå ÷åëîâåêà ïîääåðæêè.
Íå òàñêàëè áû ñ ñîáîé äóðàöêèå çàïèñêè íà àðàáñêîì ÿçûêå.
Ýòî åùå òàê, íàâñêèäêó. Òàê ÷òî íèêàêèõ ñëåäîâ ñïåöèàëüíîé êîíñïèðàòèâíîé ïîäãîòîâêè, ïðåâûøàþùåé ïðîñòåéøèé çäðàâûé ñìûñë, ìíå â äàííîì ñëó÷àå íå âèäíî.
Ïðè÷åì ïî-÷åëîâå÷åñêè îíî è ïîíÿòíî. Ìàêñèìàëüíàÿ êîíñïèðàöèÿ â òàêîì äåëå íóæíà, ÷òîáû íå âûäàòü òûëû. Åñëè æå òûëîâ íåò, òî áîÿòüñÿ ðàçîáëà÷åíèÿ ÏÎÑËÅ òåðàêòà íå÷åãî.
Ïðî èäåîëîãè÷åñêóþ ïîäãîòîâêó - òîæå ñîìíèòåëüíî. Î òîì, ÷òî àìåðèêàíöû ñóòü ñìåðòíûå âðàãè èñëàìà, ìîæíî óçíàòü â ëþáîì Ãàìáóðãå. ×òî øàõèäû ïîïàäàþò â ðàé - òîæå íå âåëèêàÿ òàéíà. Êàêàÿ åùå âåëèêàÿ èäåîëîãè÷åñêàÿ òàéíà íóæíà?
Ïðî ìîé áàíê - íå ïîíÿë. Åñëè âû èìååòå â âèäó ìîé êîíêðåòíûé áàíê, òî îí òàêè â Âàøèíãòîíå. Åñëè æå ðå÷ü èäåò î òîì, ÷òî, äå, ìîæíî âåðòåòü íüþ-éîðêñêèìè äåëàìè èç Âàøèíãòîíà, òî îòñþäà âîâñå íå ñëåäóåò, ÷òî ËÞÁÛÅ íüþ-éîðêñêèå äåëà ÎÁßÇÀÒÅËÜÍÎ âåðòÿòñÿ èç Âàøèíãòîíà.
Ïðî "ñïåöíàçîâöåâ" - èõ âåçäå ïîëíî, ÿñíîå äåëî. ß ãîâîðèë î "ñïåöíàçîâöàõ", ïðîøåäøèõ ïîäãîòîâêó â Àôãàíå - âîò ýòî óæå ÷èñòûé ÿñòðæåìáñêèé ïèàð. Íå ïðîøåäøèå àôãàíñêóþ âîéíó âîîáùå, à èìåííî ÷òî âîñïèòàííûå, ïîäãîòîâëåííûå â äàëåêèõ ãîðàõ.
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Date: 2001-09-30 05:03 pm (UTC)Ïðè íàñòîÿùåé êîíñïèðàöèè îíè ïðåæäå âñåãî ñåëè áû â ñàìîëåòû ñ ÷èñòûìè äîêóìåíòàìè.
"×èñòûå" - çíà÷èò ïîääåëüíûå? Àãà. Òóò æå âûõîäÿò íà âñåõ èçâåñòíûõ ìàñòåðîâ ïî èçãîòîâëåíèþ ôàëüøèâûõ äîêóìåíòîâ.
Ïî ñòðóêòóðå áóìàãè îïðåäåëÿþò å¸ èñòî÷íèê è òàê äàëåå. Ïðåêðàñíûé ñïîñîá çàñâåòèòü îðãàíèçàöèþ.
Ïëàòèëè áû îíè èëè êåøåì, èëè êàæäûé ðàç ðàçíûìè êàðòî÷êàìè.  àýðîïîðò áû ïðèåõàëè íå íà ðåíòîâàíîé ìàøåíå, à íà àâòîáóñå, à ëó÷øå - íà ìàøèíå ÷åëîâåêà ïîääåðæêè.
Ïðè îïëàòå êýøåì â ñåðü¸çíûõ ìåñòàõ, à íå â òàáà÷íîì êèîñêå, ïîêóïàòåëü áåð¸òñÿ íà çàìåòêó.
Âïëîòü äî îòäåëüíîé çàïèñè äëÿ ïåðåäà÷è â ïîëèöèþ. À òàêæå, ïîêóïàòåëü ôèêñèðóåòñÿ êàìåðàìè.  ëþáîì ñëó÷àå, ñòðàííîå ïîâåäåíèå
ïðèâëåêàåò âíèìàíèå. Âîðîâàííûå êàðòî÷êè: ìîæíî áåç òðóäà âû÷èñëèòü ìåñòî è âðåìÿ êðàæè. Åñòü âåðîÿòíîñòü, ÷òî âîð çàôèêñèðîâàí òåëåêàìåðàìè èëè äðóãèìè ñðåäñòâàìè ñëåæåíèÿ.
Ïðèåõàòü íà àâòîáóñå - ìîæíî îñòàòüñÿ â ïàìÿòè äðóãèõ ïàññàæèðîâ è âîäèòåëÿ. Íà àâòîáóñíûõ îñòàíîâêàõ ìîãóò áûòü êàìåðû ñëåæåíèÿ.
Ñ òîâàðèùåì: ìîðäà òîâàðèùà ìîæåò áûòü çàôèêñèðîâàíà êàìåðàìè ñëåæåíèÿ, ñâèäåòåëÿìè.
Îòëè÷íûå ñïîñîáû çàñâåòèòü ÿ÷åéêó.
Ýòî åùå òàê, íàâñêèäêó. Òàê ÷òî íèêàêèõ ñëåäîâ ñïåöèàëüíîé êîíñïèðàòèâíîé ïîäãîòîâêè, ïðåâûøàþùåé ïðîñòåéøèé çäðàâûé ñìûñë, ìíå â äàííîì ñëó÷àå íå âèäíî.
Âèäíà òùàòåëüíàÿ êîíñïèðàòèâíàÿ ðàáîòà. Âñ¸ çàìûêàåòñÿ òîëüêî íà êîíêðåòíûõ èñïîëíèòåëåé.
Ïðî èäåîëîãè÷åñêóþ ïîäãîòîâêó - òîæå ñîìíèòåëüíî. Î òîì, ÷òî àìåðèêàíöû ñóòü ñìåðòíûå âðàãè èñëàìà, ìîæíî óçíàòü â ëþáîì Ãàìáóðãå. ×òî øàõèäû ïîïàäàþò â ðàé - òîæå íå âåëèêàÿ òàéíà. Êàêàÿ åùå âåëèêàÿ èäåîëîãè÷åñêàÿ òàéíà íóæíà?
Åñëè ÿ âàì ñêàæó, ÷òî Áèí Ëàäåí - âðàã ÑØÀ, âû ñìîæåòå ïîæåðòâîâàòü ñåìü¸é è æèçíüþ äëÿ óáèéñòâà ÷ëåíîâ åãî îðãàíèçàöèè?
Áåç äîëæíîé ïñèõîëîãè÷åñêîé ïîäãîòîâêè äàæå êîòÿòà íå ðîæäàþòñÿ.
Íå ïðîøåäøèå àôãàíñêóþ âîéíó âîîáùå, à èìåííî ÷òî âîñïèòàííûå, ïîäãîòîâëåííûå â äàëåêèõ ãîðàõ.
Âîò âàì íîâîñòü. Â àôãàíñêèõ ëàãåðÿõ ãîòîâÿò ñïåöíàçîâöåâ ïðåêðàñíîãî óðîâíÿ.
Ï.Ñ. ×òåíèå äåòåêòèâîâ íå äà¸ò äÎëæíîé êâàëèôèêàöèè.
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Date: 2001-09-30 06:16 pm (UTC)"×èñòûå" - çíà÷èò ïîääåëüíûå?
Íåò. "×èñòûå" - çíà÷èò íàñòîÿùèå, íî íîâûå, íàïðèìåð, áåç ñëåäîâ ïðåáûâàíèÿ â Ãàìáóðãå è, âîçìîæíî, íà äðóãèå ôàìèëèè. Ñäåëàòü òàêèå äîêóìåíòû äëÿ îðãàíèçàöèè íå ñëèøêîì ñëîæíî - íî, â ñëó÷àå êëóáà ñàìîóáèéö, ýòî è èçáûòî÷íî, è íå íóæíî.
Ïðè îïëàòå êýøåì â ñåðü¸çíûõ ìåñòàõ, à íå â òàáà÷íîì êèîñêå, ïîêóïàòåëü áåð¸òñÿ íà çàìåòêó.
Äà-äà, è ñàìîóáèéöû çíàëè îá ýòîì è ïûòàëèñü êóïèòü âñå áèëåòû ïî êàðòî÷êàì - íî â äâóõ êàðòî÷êàõ îêàçàëñÿ íåïðàâèëüíûé àäðåñ, è ïðèøëîñü ïîêóïàòü íåñêîëüêî áèëåòîâ çà íàëè÷íûå.
Âèäíà òùàòåëüíàÿ êîíñïèðàòèâíàÿ ðàáîòà. Âñ¸ çàìûêàåòñÿ òîëüêî íà êîíêðåòíûõ èñïîëíèòåëåé.
Ýòî, ïðîñòèòå, óæå êàêàÿ-òî êåððîëëîâñêàÿ ëîãèêà. Îòñóòñòâèå äîêàçàòåëüñòâ ñâÿçè ñ ÍÌÂ, Ñàääàìîì è äðóãèìè êàíäèäàòóðàìè Âû ïðåäñòàâëÿåòå äîêàçàòåëüñòâîì èçîùðåííîñòè êîíñïèðàöèè.
Áåç äîëæíîé ïñèõîëîãè÷åñêîé ïîäãîòîâêè äàæå êîòÿòà íå ðîæäàþòñÿ.
Ýòî âåðíî, âîò òîëüêî ïñèõîëîãè÷åñêàÿ ïîäãîòîâêà íå îáÿçàòåëüíî ñâÿçàíà ñ äåÿòåëüíîñòüþ ÍÌÂ, âåëèêîãî è óæàñíîãî. Ïàëåñòèíñêèå øàõèäû êàê-òî îáõîäÿòñÿ áåç îòå÷åñêèõ íàñòàâëåíèé ÍÌÂ; è ïàñòâà äîêòîðà Ýïïëóàéòà îòïðàâèëàñü íà âñòðå÷ó ñ êîìåòîé, ìèíóÿ îáó÷åíèå â "àôãàíñêèõ ëàãåðÿõ".
Âîò âàì íîâîñòü. Â àôãàíñêèõ ëàãåðÿõ ãîòîâÿò ñïåöíàçîâöåâ ïðåêðàñíîãî óðîâíÿ.
À êòî èõ, êðîìå ßñòæáåìñêîãî, âèäåë?
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Date: 2001-09-30 06:39 pm (UTC)Re:
Date: 2001-09-30 07:26 pm (UTC)Îá ýòîì ÿ è ãîâîðþ. À Ãàìáóðãñêàÿ îòìåòêà? Íó è ÷òî? Îïàñíîñòü çàñâåòêè îðãàíèçàöèè ïðè èñïîëüçîâàíèè íàíàñòîÿùèõ äîêóìåíòîâ íàâåðíîå áûëà ïðîñ÷èòàíà êàê áîëåå âûñîêàÿ.
Äà-äà, è ñàìîóáèéöû çíàëè îá ýòîì è ïûòàëèñü êóïèòü âñå áèëåòû ïî êàðòî÷êàì - íî â äâóõ êàðòî÷êàõ îêàçàëñÿ íåïðàâèëüíûé àäðåñ, è ïðèøëîñü ïîêóïàòü íåñêîëüêî áèëåòîâ çà íàëè÷íûå.
Ýòî ïðîêîë ñ èõ ñòîðîíû.
Ýòî, ïðîñòèòå, óæå êàêàÿ-òî êåððîëëîâñêàÿ ëîãèêà. Îòñóòñòâèå äîêàçàòåëüñòâ ñâÿçè ñ ÍÌÂ, Ñàääàìîì è äðóãèìè êàíäèäàòóðàìè Âû ïðåäñòàâëÿåòå äîêàçàòåëüñòâîì èçîùðåííîñòè êîíñïèðàöèè.
Êàê Âû óæå ñìîãëè âèäåòü, íèêòî íå âçÿë îòâåòñòâåííîñòè çà òåððàêò. Ïîýòîìó è ñëåäîâ îñòàòüñÿ äîëæíî áûëî ñîâñåì ìèíèìóì. Ýòî ðàç.
À âî-âòîðûõ, â ëþáîì ñëó÷àå, "îñòàâëåíèå ñëåäîâ" ìîæåò ïðèâåñòè ê ðàñêðûòèþ òåððîðèñòè÷åñêîé ñåòè â ÑØÀ.Íå äëÿ òîãî îíè å¸ ñ òàêèì òðóäîì ñòðîèëè, ÷òîá òóò æå è ïîðóøèòü.
Ýòî âåðíî, âîò òîëüêî ïñèõîëîãè÷åñêàÿ ïîäãîòîâêà íå îáÿçàòåëüíî ñâÿçàíà ñ äåÿòåëüíîñòüþ ÍÌÂ, âåëèêîãî è óæàñíîãî. Ïàëåñòèíñêèå øàõèäû êàê-òî îáõîäÿòñÿ áåç îòå÷åñêèõ íàñòàâëåíèé ÍÌÂ; è ïàñòâà äîêòîðà Ýïïëóàéòà îòïðàâèëàñü íà âñòðå÷ó ñ êîìåòîé, ìèíóÿ îáó÷åíèå â "àôãàíñêèõ ëàãåðÿõ".
Íå ïîíèìàþ ýòîãî Âàøåãî âûñêàçûâàíèÿ. ß íèãäå íå óòâåðæäàë, ÷òî èìåííî Áèí Ëàäåí óñòðîèë òåððàêò. À äëÿ êàìèêàäõå äîëæíà áûòü. Êàæäàÿ îðãàíèçàöèÿ ðåøàåò äàííûé âîïðîñ ïî-ñâîåìó. Íå ñêàæ ïðî ïàñòâó, à ó Èñëàìñêîãî Äæèõàäà â Ïàëåñòèíå åñòü ñïåö. ëàãåðÿ ïîäãîòîâêè. Äàæå è íå ëàãåðÿ. Òàì ýòà ñèñòåìà ðàáîòàåò íà÷èíàÿ ñ äåòñàäîâ.
À êòî èõ, êðîìå ßñòæáåìñêîãî, âèäåë?
Äåñÿòü ëåò âîéíû â Àôãàíèñòàíå. Ëàãåðÿ ïîäãîòîâêè ìîäæàõåäîâ. Ýòè ëàãåðÿ íèêóäà íå èñïàðèëèñü.
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Date: 2001-09-30 08:07 pm (UTC)Íà ñàìîì äåëå àêöèÿ 911 - åäèíè÷íàÿ ïî ñâîåé ïðèðîäå. Óæå íà âòîðîé ðàç (õðîíîëîãè÷åñêè íà âòîðîé, òàê êàê ïåðâûå òðè óäàðà áûëè ñèíõðîííûìè) îíà ïðîâàëèëàñü, áóêâàëüíî ÷åðåç ÷àñ ïîñëå ïåðâîãî ðàçà. Ïîýòîìó áåññìûñëåííî ñîõðàíÿòü îðãàíèçàöèþ äëÿ ñëåäóþùèõ ðàçîâ òàêîãî ðîäà.
Íàêîíåö, ïðî àôãàíñêèå ëàãåðÿ. Òå ëàãåðÿ, â êîòîðûõ òðåíèðîâàëèñü ìîäæàõåäû äåñÿòü ëåò, ïîõîæå ÷òî èìåííî èñïàðèëèñü. Âåäü îíè ðàñïîëàãàëèñü íå â Àôãàíèñòàíå, à â Ïàêèñòàíå. Ïðî íèõ óæå äàâíî íè ñëóõó, íè äóõó. Ñåãîäíÿ ðå÷ü èäåò ñîâñåì î äðóãèõ ëàãåðÿõ. Ñàìè æå ìîäæàõåäû, òðåíèðîâàâøèåñÿ â òåõ ëàãåðÿõ - ýòî íûíåøíÿÿ íàäåæäà è îïîðà öèâèëèçîâàííîãî ÷åëîâå÷åñòâà, ãîðäûé è ñóâåðåííûé Ñåâåðíûé àëüÿíñ. Òàëèáû ê ìîäæàõåäàì íèêàêîãî îòíîøåíèÿ íå èìåþò.
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Date: 2001-09-30 08:25 pm (UTC)Íó äà. Íèêàêîé îðãàíèçàöèè. Ñîáðàëèñü ìóæèêè çà ïèâîì è ïîñïîðèëè. "À ñëàáî!"
Íà ñàìîì äåëå àêöèÿ 911 - åäèíè÷íàÿ ïî ñâîåé ïðèðîäå. Óæå íà âòîðîé ðàç (õðîíîëîãè÷åñêè íà âòîðîé, òàê êàê ïåðâûå òðè óäàðà áûëè ñèíõðîííûìè) îíà ïðîâàëèëàñü, áóêâàëüíî ÷åðåç ÷àñ ïîñëå ïåðâîãî ðàçà. Ïîýòîìó áåññìûñëåííî ñîõðàíÿòü îðãàíèçàöèþ äëÿ ñëåäóþùèõ ðàçîâ òàêîãî ðîäà.
È ïîýòîìó âñå ÷ëåíû îðãàíèçàöèè êàòÿòñÿ íà ýëåêòðè÷åñêèé ñòóë è â òóðìó íà äîëãèå ãîäà. Àêöèÿ îäíà óæå óäàëàñü, âòîðàÿ è îñòàëüíûå òî÷íî íå âûéäóò. ×åâî óæ òàì, íåõàé âñ¸ ïðîïàäîì ïðîïàä¸ò!
Íàêîíåö, ïðî àôãàíñêèå ëàãåðÿ. Òå ëàãåðÿ, â êîòîðûõ òðåíèðîâàëèñü ìîäæàõåäû äåñÿòü ëåò, ïîõîæå ÷òî èìåííî èñïàðèëèñü. Âåäü îíè ðàñïîëàãàëèñü íå â Àôãàíèñòàíå, à â Ïàêèñòàíå. Ïðî íèõ óæå äàâíî íè ñëóõó, íè äóõó. Ñåãîäíÿ ðå÷ü èäåò ñîâñåì î äðóãèõ ëàãåðÿõ. Ñàìè æå ìîäæàõåäû, òðåíèðîâàâøèåñÿ â òåõ ëàãåðÿõ - ýòî íûíåøíÿÿ íàäåæäà è îïîðà öèâèëèçîâàííîãî ÷åëîâå÷åñòâà, ãîðäûé è ñóâåðåííûé Ñåâåðíûé àëüÿíñ. Òàëèáû ê ìîäæàõåäàì íèêàêîãî îòíîøåíèÿ íå èìåþò.
Çíà÷èò, ó òàëèáîâ òàêè åñòü ëàãåðÿ.  êîòîðûõ, ñìåþ çàìåòèòü, íå õîìÿ÷êîâ ðàçâîäÿò. È èíñòðóêòîðà íèêóäà íå äåëèñü. È ìåòîäèêè èç ïàìÿòè íå ñò¸ðëèñü.
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Date: 2001-10-01 04:36 am (UTC)Âû ïðî ñóèöèäàëüíûå ýñõàòîëîãè÷åñêèå êóëüòû ñëûøàëè êîãäà-íèáóäü? "Âåòâü Äàâèäîâà", "Õðàì Ñîëíöà", "Íåáåñíûå Âðàòà" è ò.ï. Êàê ïî Âàøåìó - ìàññîâîå ñàìîóáèéñòâî ÷ëåíîâ ñåêòû ñâèäåòåëüñòâóåò î íàëè÷èè âíåøíåé îðãàíèçàöèè, ïðîâåäøåé ñîîòâåòñòâóþùóþ ïñèõîëîãè÷åñêóþ ïîäãîòîâêó?
Çíà÷èò, ó òàëèáîâ òàêè åñòü ëàãåðÿ.  êîòîðûõ, ñìåþ çàìåòèòü, íå õîìÿ÷êîâ ðàçâîäÿò. È èíñòðóêòîðà íèêóäà íå äåëèñü. È ìåòîäèêè èç ïàìÿòè íå ñò¸ðëèñü.
Äà, íî ïîäòâåðæäàåò âîçìîæíîñòü ñóùåñòâîâàíèÿ â Àôãàíèñòàíå ó÷åáíûõ ëàãåðåé êîììàíäîñ, à íå ôàêò èõ ñóùåñòâîâàíèÿ. Òåí áîëåå ÷òî ìåæäó êîììàíäîñ è òåððîðèñòàìè åñòü îïðåäåëåííàÿ ðàçíèöà, Âû íå íàõîäèòå?
Åñòü ëè â âîîðóæåííûõ ôîðìèðîâàíèÿõ òàëèáîâ è Ñåâåðíîãî Àëüÿíñà êîììàíäîñ? Âåðîÿòíî, åñòü, ïî÷åìó áû è íåò? Âåðîÿòíî, åñòü è ó÷åáíûå ÷àñòè. Îäíàêî â íüþ-éîðêñêîì òåðàêòå òåððîðèñòû íå ïðîäåìîíñòðèðîâàëè íèêàêèõ ýëåìåíòîâ âûó÷êè êîììàíäîñ; è äàæå ðóêîïàøíîìó áîþ îíè ïûòàëèñü ( íåóñïåøíî ) ó÷èòüñÿ â Àìåðèêå.
Ïîëàãàþ, ÷òî Âû ñìåøèâàåòå äâå ðàçíûå âåùè: ó÷åáíûå ÷àñòè âîîðóæåííûõ àôãàíñêèõ ôîðìèðîâàíèé è öåíòðû ïîäãîòîâêè òåððîðèñòîâ. Ïîñëåäíèå, áåçóñëîâíî, ñóùåñòâóþò: äîêàçàòåëüñòâîì ñëóæèò óñïåõ òåðàêòîâ ïðîòèâ ÑØÀ â Àôðèêå. Îäíàêî îáó÷åíèå íüþ-éîðêñêèõ òåððîðèñòîâ â òàêèõ öåíòðàõ åñòü óòâåðæäåíèå, òðåáóþùåå äîêàçàòåëüñòâ. Ïîêà ÷òî òàêèõ äîêàçàòåëüñòâ ïðåäñòàâëåíî íå áûëî.
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Date: 2001-10-01 01:11 pm (UTC)À ñåêòà íå îðãàíèçàöèÿ? Ïàñòûðåé-çîìáèôèêàòîðîâ íåò? Âåðáîâùèêîâ â ñåêòó íåò? Ñîáèðàòåëåé ïîæåðòâîâàíèé íåò? Îðãàíèçàòîðîâ íåò? Ñòðóêòóðû íåò? Çàìåòüòå, âñå ýòè ñåêòû îòäåëÿëè ñâîèõ îò ÷óæèõ çà çàáîðàìè (ëàãåðü). Òàì ïñèõîëîãè÷åñêè è îáðàáàòûâàëè.
Äà, íî ïîäòâåðæäàåò âîçìîæíîñòü ñóùåñòâîâàíèÿ â Àôãàíèñòàíå ó÷åáíûõ ëàãåðåé êîììàíäîñ, à íå ôàêò èõ ñóùåñòâîâàíèÿ. Òåí áîëåå ÷òî ìåæäó êîììàíäîñ è òåððîðèñòàìè åñòü îïðåäåëåííàÿ ðàçíèöà, Âû íå íàõîäèòå?
Âìåñòå ñ áîåâèêàìè-êîììàíäîñ ìîãóò òàì æå íà ìåñòå áûòü ïîäãîòîâëåíû è ïðîçîìáèðîâàíû êàìèêàäçå.
È äàæå åñëè ñàìè ñàìîóáèéöû ïîäãîòîâëåíû â Åâðîïå, èõ èíñòðóêòîðà ñêîðåå âñåãî ïðîøëè ïîäãîòîâêó â êàêîì íèáóäü ëàãåðå â Ëèâàíå ëè â Àôãàíèñòàíè, Ëèâèè èëè â äðóãîì ïîäîáíîì ìåñòå.
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Date: 2001-10-01 02:02 pm (UTC)Re:
Date: 2001-10-01 02:19 pm (UTC)Íó, òàê íà "ÍÝÒ"è ñóäà ÍÝÒ.
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Date: 2001-10-01 04:59 pm (UTC)À ñåêòà íå îðãàíèçàöèÿ? Ïàñòûðåé-çîìáèôèêàòîðîâ íåò? Âåðáîâùèêîâ â ñåêòó íåò? Ñîáèðàòåëåé ïîæåðòâîâàíèé íåò? Îðãàíèçàòîðîâ íåò? Ñòðóêòóðû íåò?
Åñòü, íî öåëèêîì ñîñðåäîòî÷åíû âíóòðè ñåêòû.  êîëëåêòèâíîì ñàìîóáèéñòâå "Íåáåñíûõ âðàò" ïðèíÿëè ó÷àñòèå è ïàñòûðè, è âåðáîâùèêè, è ñîáèðàòåëè ïîæåðòâîâàíèé.  íàñòîÿùèé ìîìåíò íåò íèêàêèõ îñíîâàíèé ïðåäïîëàãàòü ÷òî ñèòóàöèÿ ñ íüþ-éîðêñêèìè òåððîðèñòàìè îòëè÷àåòñÿ îò "Íåáåñíûõ âðàò".
Âìåñòå ñ áîåâèêàìè-êîììàíäîñ ìîãóò òàì æå íà ìåñòå áûòü ïîäãîòîâëåíû è ïðîçîìáèðîâàíû êàìèêàäçå.
Ìîãóò, íî âîçìîæíîñòü ôàêòà íå åñòü äîêàçàòåëüñòâî. Áðèòâà Îêêàìà òðåáóåò ðàññóæäàòü ñëåäóþùèì îáðàçîì: ïîñêîëüêó ïðèìåðû ãðóïïîâîé ïñèõîëîãè÷åñêîé äèíàìèêè, ïðèâîäÿùåé ê êîëëåêòèâíîìó ñàìîóáèéñòâó, èçâåñòíû, à ôàêòîâ, óêàçûâàþùèõ íà îðãàíèçàöèîííóþ ñâÿçü òåððîðèñòîâ ñ ÍÌ íåò, ñëåäóåò äåëàòü ñàìîå ïðîñòîå ïðåäïîëîæåíèå.
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Date: 2001-10-02 04:45 pm (UTC)Âîò ñþäà ìîæíî.
Çàïîñòèòå âàøó ïîñëåäíÿÿ ðåïëèêó ñþäà, ÷òîá îíà êî ìíå ïðèøëà ìûëîì.
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Date: 2001-09-30 06:30 pm (UTC)1. ×èñòûìè ìîãóò áûòü íå îáÿçàòåëüíî ïîääåëüíûå äîêóìåíòû. Ïîëó÷èòü âïîëíå íàñòîÿùèå ïðàâà â Àìåðèêå íà ëèïîâîå èìÿ - íå òàêàÿ âåëèêàÿ íàóêà. Êàêèå-íèáóäü ýêçîòè÷åñêèå äîêóìåíòû ìîæíî ïîääåëàòü ñàìèì. Ñàì ëåòàë, ïîýòîìó çíàþ, êàê ïðîâåðÿþò (ïðîâåðÿëè) äîêóìåíòû íà âíóòðåííèõ ëèíèÿõ. Äîêóìåíò ìîæåò áûòü íà ïîêîéíèêà ñ ïîõîæèì àðàáñêèì èìåíåì è ò.ä. Ãëàâíîå - ïîêóïàåòñÿ äðàãîöåííîå âðåìÿ. Âñå ëó÷øå, ÷åì ëåòåòü ïîä ñâîèì èìåíåì.
Ãëàâíîå, îíè æå âñå ðàâíî ìåíÿëèñü êñèâàìè, ïîëó÷àëè ëåâûå äîêóìåíòû (â Âèðäæèíèè) è ò.ä. Âñå òî æå ñàìîå ìîæíî áûëî äåëàòü ìíîãî ïîñëåäîâàòåëüíåå è îðãàíèçîâàííåå.
2. Ïîêóïàòåëü áèëåòîâ áåðåòñÿ íà çàìåòêó  ËÞÁÎÌ ÑËÓ×ÀÅ, ïîòîìó, ÷òî â áèëåòå óêàçûâàåòñÿ åãî èìÿ. Èñïîëüçîâàíèå íàëè÷êè ïðîñòî óìåíüøàåò ÷èñëî íèòî÷åê äëÿ ñëåäñòâèÿ. Ïðè ýòîì ïîäîçðåíèå íàëè÷êà ìîæåò âûçâàòü ïðè ïîêóïêå ðàçìåðîì ñâûøå òûñÿ÷è è áîëåå - ìàøèíû, äîðîãîé ìåáåëè. "Çàïèñü äëÿ ïåðåäà÷è â ïîëèöèþ" ïðè ïîêóïêå íàëè÷êîé - êàê âû ñåáå ýòî ïðåäñòàâëÿåòå? Ìîè ìîñêîâñêèå çíàêîìûå äåñÿòêè ðàç ïëàòèëè ïî 600-900 äîëëàðîâ êåøåì â óíèâåðìàãàõ - íèêòî èõ äîêóìåíòîâ íå ñïðàøèâàë; ×ÒÎ æå ñîîáùàëîñü â ïîëèöèþ?
3. Àâòîáóñ, òîâàðèù - ìîë, ïðèâëåêàþò âíèìàíèå ñâèäåòåëåé è ò.ä. ×òî çà ïå÷àëü? ×òî òåððîðèñòû ñîâåðøèëè òåðàêò - ÿñíî è áåç ñâèäåòåëåé. À íà êîíöû-íèòî÷êè àâòîáóñíûå ñâèäåòåëè íàâåñòè íå ìîãóò. Çàòî ðåíòîâàíèå ìàøèíû, ïîìèìî òåõ æå ñâèäåòåëé â ðåíòîâî÷íîì îôèñå è ò.ä., îñòàâëÿåò ñåðüåçíûå äîêóìåíòàëüíûå ñëåäû.
Êàìåðû ñëåæåíèÿ îáû÷íî ñòîÿò â àýðîïîðòàõ, à íå íà äîðîãàõ, âåäóùèõ ê íèì.  ëþáîì ñëó÷àå "òîâàðèù"-øîôåð ìîæåò çàãðèìèðîâàòüñÿ äî íåóçíàâàåìîñòè.
 êîíöå êîíöîâ, ïðîùå âñåãî âçÿòü òàêñè â ñëó÷àéíîì ìåñòå. Êîëè÷åñòâî ñâèäåòåëåé áóäåò ðàâíî åäèíèöå, è ïðîêó îò íåãî áóäåò âñå ðàâíî íèêàêîãî.
4. Èç òîãî, ÷òî ñëåäîâ êîíñïèðàöèè íå âèäíî, âû äåëàåòå âûâîä, ÷òî â ýòîì è âèäíû ñëåäû îñîáî òùàòåëüíîé êîíñïèðàöèè. Ýòî è åñòü ëîãèêà êîíñïèðîëîãèè, äëÿ êîòîðîé ÷åì î÷åâèäíåå ÿâëåíèå, ÷åì íàãëÿäíåå åãî ïðè÷èíû - òåì áîëüøå âåðîÿòíîñòü ñòîÿùåãî çà íèì òàéíîãî çàãîâîðà. Âåäü èìåííî òàê è äîêàçûâàåòñÿ ìàñîíñêèé çàãîâîð èëè ïîòðåáëåíèå åâðåÿìè õðèñòèàíñêîé êðîâè: ïîòîìó-òî è íåò, ìîë, äîêàçàòåëüñòâ, ÷òî äåëî ýòî ñâåðõòàéíîå.
Ñì. äàëåå.
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Date: 2001-09-30 06:32 pm (UTC)5. Èç òîãî, ÷òî ÿ íå ïîáåãó âçðûâàòü ÍÌÂ, ñëåäóåò, êàê ìèíèìóì, òîëüêî òî, ÷òî ÿ íèêàêîé íå ãëàâíûé áîðåö çà äåëî ÑØÀ, ÿ íå çíàþ, ãäå íàõîäèòñÿ ÍÌÂ, íå çíàþ, êàê ê íåìó ïîäîáðàòüñÿ, è íå ñ÷èòàþ, ÷òî ýòî äåëî âîîáùå ñòîèò óñèëèé.
Ïðè ýòîì èç ìèëëèàðäà ìóñóëüìàí, ñòà ìèëëèîíîâ àðàáîâ - âçðûâàòü äîìà ïîøëè âñåãî äâà äåñÿòêà ÷åëîâåê. Ïðè÷åì ÍÌ íàäî åùå íàéòè, à WTC - âîò îí, ïðÿìî ïåðåä ãëàçàìè.
Åñëè áû àìåðèêàíöû ïîãîëîâíî áûëè óáåæäåíû, ÷òî êàêîé-òî àêò, áóäó÷è òåõíè÷åñêè îñóùåñòâèì, êðèòè÷åñêè âàæåí äëÿ ñïàñåíèÿ ñòðàíû - íå ñîìíåâàþñü, íàøëîñü áû íåñêîëüêî ÷åëîâåê, ãîòîâûõ ïîæåðòâîâàòü äëÿ ýòîãî ñâîåé æèçíüþ. Òî æå ñàìîå âåðíî è äëÿ ðóññêèõ, èçðàèëüòÿí, êèòàéöåâ è ò.ä. Äðóãîå äåëî, ÷òî àìåðèêàíöû, ðóññêèå è åâðåè â ìàññå ñâîåé íå âèäÿò òàêîãî äåëà, òàêîãî àêòà.
Ïñèõîëîãè÷åñêàÿ ïîäãîòîâêà, êîíå÷íî, âåëèêîå äåëî. Íåïîíÿòíî òîëüêî, ïî÷åìó åþ ìîæíî çàíèìàòüñÿ òîëüêî â äàëåêèõ ãîðàõ. Ñîáñòâåííî, äàííûé ñëó÷àé ýòó òåîðèþ è îïðîâåðã: îñíîâíûå òåððîðèñòû ïñèõîëîãèþ ñâîþ êîâàëè íå ãäå-íèáóäü, à â ñàìîì áàíàëüíîì Ãàìáóðãå.
6. Ãîòîâÿò ëè â Àôãàíèñòàíå ñïåöíàçîâöåâ èëè íåò - ìíå, åñòåñòâåííî, íå âåäîìî. Âåäîìî äðóãîå: ÷òî ñïåöíàçîâñêèõ íàâûêîâ âðîäå êèäàíèÿ íîæà èç ïîëîæåíèÿ "ïîäâåøåíûé çà íîãó" çäåñü íå òðåáîâàëîñü; ÷òî íèêàêîãî ñïåöíàçîâñêîãî îáó÷åíèÿ äàííûå òåððîðèñòû íå ïðîõîäèëè; ÷òî çà ãîäû ÷å÷åíñêîé âîéíû íèêàêèõ àôãàíñêèõ ñïåöíàçîâöåâ íå îáíàðóæåíî; ÷òî íèêàêèå ïàëåñòèíñêèå ñàìîóáèéöû ÷åðåç Àôãàíèñòàí íå ïðîõîäèëè.
7.  çàâåðøåíèå. ßñíî, ÷òî íà ëþáîé äèâåðñàíòñêèé òðþê ó ñïåöñëóæá åñòü ñâîé êîíòðòðþê. Íî èç ýòîãî íå ñëåäóåò, ÷òî äèâåðñàíòû ïåðåñòàþò ïîëüçîâàòüñÿ òðþêàìè. Ëó÷øå âñåãî ñðàâíèòü ýòîò àêò ñ áîëüøèìè âçðûâàìè â àìåðèêàíñêèõ ïîñîëüñòâàõ â Àôðèêå, â Éåìåíå, â Áóýíîñ-Àéðåñå. Î÷åâèäíî, ÷òî èõ íàäî áûëî ïðîôåññèîíàëüíî ãîòîâèòü. È íå ñëó÷àéíî, ÷òî ñëåäñòâèå ïî ýòèì âçðûâàì ïî÷òè íè÷åãî íå íàøëî, ÷òî òðþêè îêàçàëèñü âåñüìà óñïåøíû, ÷òî êîíöû çàïðÿòàíû â âîäó. Ðàçíèöà - íàãëÿäíà.
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Date: 2001-09-30 08:35 pm (UTC)Ïðè ýòîì èç ìèëëèàðäà ìóñóëüìàí, ñòà ìèëëèîíîâ àðàáîâ - âçðûâàòü äîìà ïîøëè âñåãî äâà äåñÿòêà ÷åëîâåê. Ïðè÷åì ÍÌ íàäî åùå íàéòè, à WTC - âîò îí, ïðÿìî ïåðåä ãëàçàìè.
Âû ïðåäñòàâëÿåòå, ÊÀÊ èõ, òàêèõ äîáðîâîëüöåâ èñêàòü? Äàâàòü îáúÿâëåíèÿ â ãàçåòàõ? Âûâåøèâàòü ïëàêàòå "òðåáóþòñÿ". Èëè òàêè íóæíà îðãàíèçàöèÿ, îòûñêèâàþùàÿ íóæíûõ ëþäåé? Òî, ÷òî êàæåòñÿ Âàì ïðîñòûì îé êàê íå ïðîñòî.
Ïñèõîëîãè÷åñêàÿ ïîäãîòîâêà, êîíå÷íî, âåëèêîå äåëî. Íåïîíÿòíî òîëüêî, ïî÷åìó åþ ìîæíî çàíèìàòüñÿ òîëüêî â äàëåêèõ ãîðàõ. Ñîáñòâåííî, äàííûé ñëó÷àé ýòó òåîðèþ è îïðîâåðã: îñíîâíûå òåððîðèñòû ïñèõîëîãèþ ñâîþ êîâàëè íå ãäå-íèáóäü, à â ñàìîì áàíàëüíîì Ãàìáóðãå.
Âàì îïÿòü ïðèâåñòè ïðèìåð ñ áàíêîì. Èëè àíàëîãèÿ ñî ñïðóòîì ïîéä¸ò?
6. Ãîòîâÿò ëè â Àôãàíèñòàíå ñïåöíàçîâöåâ èëè íåò - ìíå, åñòåñòâåííî, íå âåäîìî. Âåäîìî äðóãîå: ÷òî ñïåöíàçîâñêèõ íàâûêîâ âðîäå êèäàíèÿ íîæà èç ïîëîæåíèÿ "ïîäâåøåíûé çà íîãó" çäåñü íå òðåáîâàëîñü; ÷òî íèêàêîãî ñïåöíàçîâñêîãî îáó÷åíèÿ äàííûå òåððîðèñòû íå ïðîõîäèëè; ÷òî çà ãîäû ÷å÷åíñêîé âîéíû íèêàêèõ àôãàíñêèõ ñïåöíàçîâöåâ íå îáíàðóæåíî; ÷òî íèêàêèå ïàëåñòèíñêèå ñàìîóáèéöû ÷åðåç Àôãàíèñòàí íå ïðîõîäèëè.
Âîçâðàùàþñü ê "îáùåìó áàêàëàâðèàòó".
À ñ ÷åãî Âû, ñîáñòâåííî, âçÿëè, ÷òî àôãàíöû äîëæíû îáúÿâèòüñÿ èìåííî â ×å÷íå. È äðóãèõ ìåñò ïîëíî.
7.  çàâåðøåíèå. ßñíî, ÷òî íà ëþáîé äèâåðñàíòñêèé òðþê ó ñïåöñëóæá åñòü ñâîé êîíòðòðþê. Íî èç ýòîãî íå ñëåäóåò, ÷òî äèâåðñàíòû ïåðåñòàþò ïîëüçîâàòüñÿ òðþêàìè. Ëó÷øå âñåãî ñðàâíèòü ýòîò àêò ñ áîëüøèìè âçðûâàìè â àìåðèêàíñêèõ ïîñîëüñòâàõ â Àôðèêå, â Éåìåíå, â Áóýíîñ-Àéðåñå. Î÷åâèäíî, ÷òî èõ íàäî áûëî ïðîôåññèîíàëüíî ãîòîâèòü. È íå ñëó÷àéíî, ÷òî ñëåäñòâèå ïî ýòèì âçðûâàì ïî÷òè íè÷åãî íå íàøëî, ÷òî òðþêè îêàçàëèñü âåñüìà óñïåøíû, ÷òî êîíöû çàïðÿòàíû â âîäó. Ðàçíèöà - íàãëÿäíà.
À ÷òî íàøëè ïîñëå òåððàêòîâ â Í-É? Âèäèìî, òàêæå íè÷åãî ñóùåñòâåííîãî. Èíà÷å, íå âåðòåë áû Áóø æ0ïîé. Òî òî÷íî ó íåãî Áèí Ëàäåí âèíîâàò. Òî âðîäå áû Õóñåéí, òî åù¸ íåïîíÿòíî êòî.
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Date: 2001-09-30 07:10 pm (UTC)À çà÷åì ìîðîêà ñ ïîäìåíîé äîêóìåíòîâ??? ×åì ñòàòóñ ïëþñ äîêóìåíòû ëåãàëüíîãî èììèãðàíòà õóæå?
Êàæäàÿ íèòî÷êà, âåäóùàÿ äàëüøå èñïîëíèòåëÿ, ìîæåò ïðèâåñòè ê îðãàíèçàöèè.
2. Ïîêóïàòåëü áèëåòîâ áåðåòñÿ íà çàìåòêó  ËÞÁÎÌ ÑËÓ×ÀÅ, ïîòîìó, ÷òî â áèëåòå óêàçûâàåòñÿ åãî èìÿ. Èñïîëüçîâàíèå íàëè÷êè ïðîñòî óìåíüøàåò ÷èñëî íèòî÷åê äëÿ ñëåäñòâèÿ. Ïðè ýòîì ïîäîçðåíèå íàëè÷êà ìîæåò âûçâàòü ïðè ïîêóïêå ðàçìåðîì ñâûøå òûñÿ÷è è áîëåå - ìàøèíû, äîðîãîé ìåáåëè. "Çàïèñü äëÿ ïåðåäà÷è â ïîëèöèþ" ïðè ïîêóïêå íàëè÷êîé - êàê âû ñåáå ýòî ïðåäñòàâëÿåòå? Ìîè ìîñêîâñêèå çíàêîìûå äåñÿòêè ðàç ïëàòèëè ïî 600-900 äîëëàðîâ êåøåì â óíèâåðìàãàõ - íèêòî èõ äîêóìåíòîâ íå ñïðàøèâàë; ×ÒÎ æå ñîîáùàëîñü â ïîëèöèþ?
Âû ïóòàåòå ïðîñòîå çàíåñåíèå â êàðòîòåêó (ïî êîòîðîé òîæå ìîæíî îòñëåäèòü) ñ ïðîõîæäåíèåì ïîêóïàòåëÿ âîîáùå îòäåëüíûì ñïèñêîì.  òàêîì ñëó÷àå, ôèãóðàíò ñ îñîáîé òùàòåëüíîñòüþ çàïèñûâàåòñÿ íà âèäåî, åãî ïðèìåòû çàïîìèíàþòñÿ è òàê äàëåå. Âàøè ìîñêîâñêèå çíàêîìûå íàâåðíÿêà ïîïàëè â ýòó îñîáóþ êàðòîòåêó. È Âû è Âàøè çíàêîìûå ñîâñåì íå îáÿçàíû îá ýòîì çíàòü.
3. Àâòîáóñ, òîâàðèù - ìîë, ïðèâëåêàþò âíèìàíèå ñâèäåòåëåé è ò.ä. ×òî çà ïå÷àëü? ×òî òåððîðèñòû ñîâåðøèëè òåðàêò - ÿñíî è áåç ñâèäåòåëåé. À íà êîíöû-íèòî÷êè àâòîáóñíûå ñâèäåòåëè íàâåñòè íå ìîãóò. Çàòî ðåíòîâàíèå ìàøèíû, ïîìèìî òåõ æå ñâèäåòåëé â ðåíòîâî÷íîì îôèñå è ò.ä., îñòàâëÿåò ñåðüåçíûå äîêóìåíòàëüíûå ñëåäû.
Ñíèìàëè ìàøèíû ñàìè èñïîëíèòåëè. Êðîìå íèõ íèêòî íå çàñåòèëñÿ.
Êàìåðû ñëåæåíèÿ îáû÷íî ñòîÿò â àýðîïîðòàõ, à íå íà äîðîãàõ, âåäóùèõ ê íèì.  ëþáîì ñëó÷àå "òîâàðèù"-øîôåð ìîæåò çàãðèìèðîâàòüñÿ äî íåóçíàâàåìîñòè.
Êàìåðû ñëåæåíèÿ ñòîÿò âåçäå. Â áàíêàõ è íà ïîäúåçäàõ ê íèì, íà ñâåòîôîðàõ è òðàíñïîðòíûõ ðàçâÿçêàõ, â ñóïåðìàðêåòàõ âíóòðè è ñíàðóæè. Ïðîéäèòåñü òàê, çà-ðàäè èíòåðåñó ïî ñâîåé óëèöå. Îáðàòèòå âíèìàíèå íà ìàãàçèíû. Â ñêîëüêèõ èç íèõ îáîðóäîâàíû êàìåðû ñëåæåíèÿ?
Îïåðàòèâíàÿ ñü¸ìêà ñîõðàíÿåòñÿ ÌÈÍÈÌÓÌ íåäåëþ.
Êñòàòè, Âû çíàåòå, ÷òî âñå òåëåôîííûå ïåðåãîâîðû ãîðîäà ðàçìåðîì ñ Ìîñêâó ìîãóò õðàíèòüñÿ íà äèñêà ðàçìåðîì âñåãî â ïàðó äåñÿòêîâ ãèãàáàéòîâ. È áóäüòå óâåðåíû, ïèøóòüñÿ è õðàíÿòñÿ.
Êàê Âû ïðåäñòàâëÿåòå ñåáÿ ñèòóàöèþ, êîãäà äîðîæíûé ïàòðóëü îñòàíàâëèâàåò ìàøèíó äëÿ ïðîâåðêè, à âîäèòåëü â ãðèìå?
Çà÷åì? Çà÷åì ñâåòèòü äîïîëíèòåëüíûõ ëþäåé???
. Èç òîãî, ÷òî ñëåäîâ êîíñïèðàöèè íå âèäíî, âû äåëàåòå âûâîä, ÷òî â ýòîì è âèäíû ñëåäû îñîáî òùàòåëüíîé êîíñïèðàöèè.
Ðàçóìååòñÿ. Íå äëÿ òîãî ñòðîÿò ñåòü ÿ÷ååê, ÷òîá ïðè ïåðâîì æå óäà÷íîì òåððàêòå âñ¸ çàñâåòèòü. Äîñòàòî÷íî ïðÿìûõ èñïîëíèòåëåé.
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Date: 2001-09-30 08:20 pm (UTC)Ðåíò ìàøèíû îáÿçàòåëüíî âêëþ÷àåò â ñåáÿ ïðîâåðêó êàðòî÷êè è ïðàâ. Áåñåäà ñ êëåðêîì, êîòîðûé ðàçãëÿäûâàåò òåáÿ. Ôèêñèðóåòñÿ âðåìÿ ðåíòîâàíèÿ è ïðîáåã - âàæíûå äàííûå.  Àìåðèêå ñâèäåòåëè ñêîðåå çàïîìíÿò ïðèìåòû ðåíòîâàíîé ìàøèíû, ÷åì ÷åëîâåêà.  òåõ æå àýðîïîðòàõ íà âûåçäå ñ ïëàòíûõ ïàðêèíãîâ êàìåðû îòñëåæèâàþò íå ëèöà âîäèòåëåé, à íîìåðà ìàøèí.
Ëåãàëüíûå äîêóìåíòû ïëîõè òåì, ÷òî çàñâå÷èâàþòñÿ ñðàçó âî ìíîæåñòâå ìåñò. Èìåííî òàê è ðàáîòàåò ñëåäñòâèå. Ñ ïåðâîãî æå äíÿ îíè ñìîãëè èñêàòü íå áåçûìÿííóþ êàðòèíêó, à èìÿ-ôàìèëèþ. Ïîýòîìó è íàøëè ñòîëüêî ñëåäîâ, êîòîðûå âåäóò âåçäå - â Ãåðìàíèþ, Àíãëèþ, Åãèïåò, Ñèðèþ, òîëüêî íå â Àôãàíèñòàí. Íàâåðíî, ïîýòîìó áîìáèòü ðåøèëè èìåííî Àôãàíèñòàí...
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Date: 2001-09-30 08:50 pm (UTC)Íå çíàþ àìåðèêàíñêóþ æèçíü. Äà. Íî ïðåêðàñíî çíàþ ñõåìû ðàáîòû îõðàíû. Êîòîðûå, âîáùåì, âåçäå îäèíàêîâû.
Íà ñâåòîôîðàõ âèäåîêàìåðû çäåñü íå ñòîÿò; óñòàíîâêà ÔÎÒÎêàìåð, âêëþ÷àþùèõñÿ ïðè êðàñíîì ñâåòå, åñòü ïðåäìåò ïîëèòè÷åñêèõ äåáàòîâ.  áàíê õîäèòü íå íàäî. Áàíêîìàòû, äåéñòâèòåëüíî, âñå ñíàáæåíû êàìåðàìè - íî çäåñü-òî è äîñòàòî÷íî ñàìîãî ïðèìèòèâíîãî ãðèìà. Íèêàêèå ïàòðóëè ìàøèíû íå îñòàíàâëèâàþò, åñëè òîëüêî ïðàâèëà íå íàðóøàòü. Åñòåñòâåííî, ÷òî â óíèâåðìàãàõ êàìåðû íàöåëåíû íå íà êàññû (ãäå è ïëàòÿò íàëè÷êîé), à íà ñòåëëàæè ñ òîâàðàìè. Êàê áóäåò ïëàòèòü ïîêóïàòåëü, âûÿñíÿåòñÿ â ñàìûé ïîñëåäíèé ìîìåíò, êîãäà íåñóùåñòâóþùèå êàìåðû âêëþ÷àòü óæå ïîçäíî.
Âû ïðîñòî íå çíàåòå î ñóùåñòâîâàíèè ýòèõ âèäåîêàìåð. Îíè íå äëÿ øòðàôîâàíèÿ óñòàíîâëåíû. Ïî èõ ïîêàçàíèÿì, çà ïðîåçä êðàñíûé ñâåò íå õâàòàþò.
Âû òàê óâåðåíû, ÷òî ãðèì íå çàìåòåí. Âû çíàêîìû ñ òåõíèêîé ãðèìà? Íå ôàêò, ÷òî òåððîðèñòû óìåëè ãðèìèðîâàòüñÿ êàê àñû ãîëëèâóäà.
Åñëè ïðàâèëà íå íàðóøàòü, ïàòðóëü íå îñòàíîâèò. À åñëè ñëó÷àéíî? Íèêòî íå çàñòðàõîâàí îò ñëó÷àéíîãî. Èç-çà òàêîé ñëó÷àéíîñòè ìîæåò ïðîâàëèòüñÿ îïåðàöèÿ. Çà÷åì ðèñêîâàòü?
Âû íèêîãäà íå âèäåëè ïî òåëåâèçîðó êàäðû îãðàáëåíèÿ êàññ â ìàãàçèíàõ? Ïî÷åìó-òî âèäíî è ïðîäàâöà è êàññó.
Ðåíò ìàøèíû îáÿçàòåëüíî âêëþ÷àåò â ñåáÿ ïðîâåðêó êàðòî÷êè è ïðàâ. Áåñåäà ñ êëåðêîì, êîòîðûé ðàçãëÿäûâàåò òåáÿ. Ôèêñèðóåòñÿ âðåìÿ ðåíòîâàíèÿ è ïðîáåã - âàæíûå äàííûå.  Àìåðèêå ñâèäåòåëè ñêîðåå çàïîìíÿò ïðèìåòû ðåíòîâàíîé ìàøèíû, ÷åì ÷åëîâåêà.  òåõ æå àýðîïîðòàõ íà âûåçäå ñ ïëàòíûõ ïàðêèíãîâ êàìåðû îòñëåæèâàþò íå ëèöà âîäèòåëåé, à íîìåðà ìàøèí.
Íå çàáûâàéòå, ÷òî êëåðê çàïîìíèò ÷åëîâåê, êîòîðîãî ÷åðåç ïàðó ÷àñîâ íå áóäåò â æèâûõ.  ëþáîì ñëó÷àå, ýòî óäîáíåå, ÷åì áðàòü òîâàðèùà äëÿ ïîäâîçêè.
Ëåãàëüíûå äîêóìåíòû ïëîõè òåì, ÷òî çàñâå÷èâàþòñÿ ñðàçó âî ìíîæåñòâå ìåñò. Èìåííî òàê è ðàáîòàåò ñëåäñòâèå. Ñ ïåðâîãî æå äíÿ îíè ñìîãëè èñêàòü íå áåçûìÿííóþ êàðòèíêó, à èìÿ-ôàìèëèþ. Ïîýòîìó è íàøëè ñòîëüêî ñëåäîâ, êîòîðûå âåäóò âåçäå - â Ãåðìàíèþ, Àíãëèþ, Åãèïåò, Ñèðèþ, òîëüêî íå â Àôãàíèñòàí. Íàâåðíî, ïîýòîìó áîìáèòü ðåøèëè èìåííî Àôãàíèñòàí...
Êëþ÷åâîå ñëîâî "ËÅÃÀËÜÍÎ". Ëåãàëüíî ìîæíî òùàòåëüíî ïîñòðîèòü áèîãðàôèþ. è íèêòî íå ïîäêàïàåòñÿ.
Ïîâåðüòå, èñòî÷íèê ôàëüøèâûõ äîêóìåíòîâ íå ñëîæíî îòñëåäèòü.