Орднунг версус фрайхайт
Feb. 23rd, 2006 01:31 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
borislvinИз постинга 
Трурля узнал об удивительной истории, как германский суд влепил год условно (плюс 300 часов общественных работ) мужику, обидевшему мусульман - http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060223/wl_nm/crime_religion_germany_dc_2
Удивился, полез проверять. Нашел германский УК. Оказывается, в нем и не такие чудеса содержатся. Например:
Section 90 Disparagement of the Federal President
(1) Whoever publicly disparages the Federal President in a meeting or through the dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) shall be punished with imprisonment from three months to five years.
(2) In less serious cases the court in its discretion may mitigate the punishment (Section 49 subsection (2)) if the requirements of Section 188 have not been fulfilled.
(3) The punishment shall be imprisonment from six months to five years if the act constitutes a defamation (Section 187) or if the perpetrator by the act intentionally gives his support to efforts against the continued existence of the Federal Republic of Germany or against its constitutional principles.
(4) The act shall be prosecuted only with the authorization of the Federal President.
Section 90a Disparagement of the State and its Symbols
(1) Whoever publicly, in a meeting or through the dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)):
1. insults or maliciously maligns the Federal Republic of Germany or one of its Lands or its constitutional order; or
2. disparages the colors, flag, coat of arms or the anthem of the Federal Republic of Germany or one of its Lands,
shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.
(2) Whoever removes, destroys, damages, renders unusable or unrecognizable, or commits insulting mischief upon a publicly displayed flag of the Federal Republic of Germany or one of its Lands or a national emblem installed by a public authority of the Federal Republic of Germany or one of its Lands shall be similarly punished. An attempt shall be punishable.
(3) The punishment shall be imprisonment for not more than five years or a fine if the perpetrator by the act intentionally gives support to efforts against the continued existence of the Federal Republic of Germany or against its constitutional principles.
Section 90b Anti-Constitutional Disparagement of Constitutional Organs
(1) Whoever publicly, in a meeting or through the dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) disparages a constitutional organ, the government or the constitutional court of the Federation or of a Land or one of their members in this capacity in a manner endangering respect for the state and thereby intentionally gives support to efforts against the continued existence of the Federal Republic of Germany or against its constitutional principles, shall be punished with imprisonment from three months to five years.
(2) The act shall be prosecuted only with the authorization of the constitutional organ or member affected.
<...>
Section 103 Insult to Organs and Representatives of Foreign States
(1) Whoever insults a foreign head of state, or, with respect to his position, a member of a foreign government, who is in Germany in official capacity, or a head of a foreign diplomatic mission who is accredited in the federal territory, shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine, in case of a slanderous insult, with imprisonment from three months to five years.
(2) If the act was committed publicly, in a meeting or through the dissemination of writings (Section 11, subsection (3)), then Section 200 shall be applicable. The public prosecutor may also file an application for publication of the conviction.
Section 104 Injury to Flags or National Emblems of Foreign States
(1) Whoever removes, destroys, damages, renders unrecognizable, or commits insulting mischief with a flag of a foreign state, which is displayed according to legal provisions or recognized custom, or a national emblem of such a state which has been publicly installed by a recognized mission of such state, shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than two years or a fine.
(2) An attempt shall be punishable.
Section 104a Prerequisites for Criminal Prosecution
Crimes under this section shall only be prosecuted if the Federal Republic of Germany maintains diplomatic relations with the other state, reciprocity is guaranteed and was also guaranteed at the time of the act, a request for prosecution by the foreign government exists, and the federal government gives authorization for criminal prosecution.
<...>
Section 130 Agitation of the People
(1) Whoever, in a manner that is capable of disturbing the public peace:
1. incites hatred against segments of the population or calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them; or
2. assaults the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning, or defaming segments of the population,
shall be punished with imprisonment from three months to five years.
(2) Whoever:
1. with respect to writings (Section 11 subsection (3)), which incite hatred against segments of the population or a national, racial or religious group, or one characterized by its folk customs, which call for violent or arbitrary measures against them, or which assault the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning or defaming segments of the population or a previously indicated group:
a) disseminates them;
b) publicly displays, posts, presents, or otherwise makes them accessible;
c) offers, gives or makes accessible to a person under eighteen years; or
(d) produces, obtains, supplies, stocks, offers, announces, commends, undertakes to import or export them, in order to use them or copies obtained from them within the meaning of numbers a through c or facilitate such use by another; or
2. disseminates a presentation of the content indicated in number 1 by radio,
shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.
(3) Whoever publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or renders harmless an act committed under the rule of National Socialism of the type indicated in Section 220a subsection (1), in a manner capable of disturbing the public piece shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than five years or a fine.
(4) Subsection (2) shall also apply to writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) with content such as is indicated in subsection (3).
(5) In cases under subsection (2), also in conjunction with subsection (4), and in cases of subsection (3), Section 86 subsection (3), shall apply correspondingly.
<...>
Section 131 Representation of Violence
(1) Whoever, in relation to writings (Section 11 subsection (3)), which describe cruel or otherwise inhuman acts of violence against human beings in a manner which expresses a glorification or rendering harmless of such acts of violence or which represents the cruel or inhuman aspects of the event in a manner which injures human dignity:
1. disseminates them;
2. publicly displays, posts, presents, or otherwise makes them accessible;
3. offers, gives or makes them accessible to a person under eighteen years; or
4. produces, obtains, supplies, stocks, offers, announces, commends, undertakes to import or export them, in order to use them or copies obtained from them within the meaning of numbers 1 through 3 or facilitate such use by another,
shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than one year or a fine.
(2) Whoever disseminates a presentation of the content indicated in subsection (1) by radio, shall be similarly punished.
(3) Subsections (1) and (2) shall not apply if the act serves as reporting about current or historical events.
(4) Subsection (1), number 3 shall not be applicable if the person authorized to care for the person acts.
<...>
Section 166 Insulting of Faiths, Religious Societies and Organizations Dedicated to a Philosophy of Life
(1) Whoever publicly or through dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) insults the content of others' religious faith or faith related to a philosophy of life in a manner that is capable of disturbing the public peace, shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.
(2) Whoever publicly or through dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) insults a church, other religious society, or organization dedicated to a philosophy of life located in Germany, or their institutions or customs in a manner that is capable of disturbing the public peace, shall be similarly punished.
<...>
Section 185 Insult
Insult shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than one year or a fine and, if the insult is committed by means of violence, with imprisonment for not more than two years or a fine.
Section 186 Malicious Gossip
Whoever asserts or disseminates a fact in relation to another, which is capable of maligning him or disparaging him in the public opinion, shall, if this fact is not demonstrably true, be punished with imprisonment for not more than one year or a fine and, if the act was committed publicly or through the dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)), with imprisonment for not more than two years or a fine.
Section 187 Defamation
Whoever, against his better judgment, asserts or disseminates an untrue fact in relation to another, which maligns him or disparages him in the public opinion or is capable of endangering his credit, shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than two years or a fine, and, if the act was committed publicly, in a meeting or through dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)), with imprisonment for not more than five years or a fine.
Section 188 Malicious Gossip and Defamation Against Persons in Political Life
(1) If malicious gossip (Section 186) is committed publicly, in a meeting or through dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) against a person involved in the political life of the people with a motive connected with the position of the insulted person in public life, and the act is capable of making his public work substantially more difficult, then the punishment shall be imprisonment from three months to five years.
(2) A defamation (Section 187) under the same prerequisites shall be punished with imprisonment from six months to five years.
Section 189 Disparagement of the Memory of Deceased Persons
Whoever disparages the memory of a deceased person shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than two years or a fine.
Section 190 Judgment of Conviction as Proof of Truth
If the asserted or disseminated fact is a crime, then the proof of the truth thereof shall be considered to have been provided, if a final judgment of conviction for the act has been entered against the person insulted. The proof of the truth is, on the other hand, excluded, if the insulted person had been acquitted in a final judgment before the assertion or dissemination.
Section 192 Insult Despite Proof of Truth
The proof of the truth of the asserted or disseminated fact shall not exclude punishment under Section 185, if the existence of an insult results from the form of the assertion or dissemination or the circumstances under which it occurred.
Section 193 Safeguarding Legitimate Interests
Critical judgments about scientific, artistic or commercial achievements, similar utterances which are made in order to exercise or protect rights or to safeguard legitimate interests, as well as remonstrances and reprimands of superiors to their subordinates, official reports or judgments by a civil servant and similar cases are only punishable to the extent that the existence of an insult results from the form of the utterance of the circumstances under which it occurred.
Section 194 Application for Criminal Prosecution
(1) An insult shall be prosecuted only upon complaint. If the act was committed through dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) or making them publicly accessible in a meeting or through a presentation by radio, then a complaint is not required if the aggrieved party was persecuted as a member of a group under the National Socialist or another rule by force and decree, this group is a part of the population and the insult is connected with this persecution. The act may not, however, be prosecuted ex officio if the aggrieved party objects. The objection may not be withdrawn. If the aggrieved party dies, then the right to file a complaint and the right to object pass to the relatives indicated in Section 77 subsection (2).
(2) If the memory of a deceased person has been disparaged, then the relatives indicated in Section 77, par. 2, are entitled to file a complaint. If the act was committed through dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) or making them publicly accessible in a meeting or through a presentation by radio, then a complaint is not required if the deceased person lost his life as a victim of the National Socialist or another rule by force and decree and the disparagement is connected therewith. The act may not, however, be prosecuted ex officio if a person entitled to file a complaint objects. The objection may not be withdrawn.
(3) If the insult has been committed against a public official, a person with special public service obligations, or a soldier of the Federal Armed Forces while discharging his duties or in relation to his duties, then it may also be prosecuted upon complaint of his superior in government service. If the act is directed against a public authority or other agency, which performs duties of public administration, then it may be prosecuted upon complaint of the head of the public authority or the head of the public supervisory authority. The same applies to public officials and public authorities of churches and other religious societies under public law.
(4) If the act is directed against a legislative body of the Federation or a Land or another political body within the territorial area of application of this law, then it may be prosecuted only with authorization of the affected body.
Единственное, что радует, так это:
Section 199 Insults Committed Reciprocally
If an insult is immediately reciprocated, then the judge may declare both insulters or one of them to be exempt from punishment.
http://www.iuscomp.org/gla/statutes/StGB.htm
Как говорит один юзер (который, вероятно, поспешит одобрить все вышеперечисленное) - "как все запущено!"
Трурля узнал об удивительной истории, как германский суд влепил год условно (плюс 300 часов общественных работ) мужику, обидевшему мусульман - http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060223/wl_nm/crime_religion_germany_dc_2Удивился, полез проверять. Нашел германский УК. Оказывается, в нем и не такие чудеса содержатся. Например:
Section 90 Disparagement of the Federal President
(1) Whoever publicly disparages the Federal President in a meeting or through the dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) shall be punished with imprisonment from three months to five years.
(2) In less serious cases the court in its discretion may mitigate the punishment (Section 49 subsection (2)) if the requirements of Section 188 have not been fulfilled.
(3) The punishment shall be imprisonment from six months to five years if the act constitutes a defamation (Section 187) or if the perpetrator by the act intentionally gives his support to efforts against the continued existence of the Federal Republic of Germany or against its constitutional principles.
(4) The act shall be prosecuted only with the authorization of the Federal President.
Section 90a Disparagement of the State and its Symbols
(1) Whoever publicly, in a meeting or through the dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)):
1. insults or maliciously maligns the Federal Republic of Germany or one of its Lands or its constitutional order; or
2. disparages the colors, flag, coat of arms or the anthem of the Federal Republic of Germany or one of its Lands,
shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.
(2) Whoever removes, destroys, damages, renders unusable or unrecognizable, or commits insulting mischief upon a publicly displayed flag of the Federal Republic of Germany or one of its Lands or a national emblem installed by a public authority of the Federal Republic of Germany or one of its Lands shall be similarly punished. An attempt shall be punishable.
(3) The punishment shall be imprisonment for not more than five years or a fine if the perpetrator by the act intentionally gives support to efforts against the continued existence of the Federal Republic of Germany or against its constitutional principles.
Section 90b Anti-Constitutional Disparagement of Constitutional Organs
(1) Whoever publicly, in a meeting or through the dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) disparages a constitutional organ, the government or the constitutional court of the Federation or of a Land or one of their members in this capacity in a manner endangering respect for the state and thereby intentionally gives support to efforts against the continued existence of the Federal Republic of Germany or against its constitutional principles, shall be punished with imprisonment from three months to five years.
(2) The act shall be prosecuted only with the authorization of the constitutional organ or member affected.
<...>
Section 103 Insult to Organs and Representatives of Foreign States
(1) Whoever insults a foreign head of state, or, with respect to his position, a member of a foreign government, who is in Germany in official capacity, or a head of a foreign diplomatic mission who is accredited in the federal territory, shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine, in case of a slanderous insult, with imprisonment from three months to five years.
(2) If the act was committed publicly, in a meeting or through the dissemination of writings (Section 11, subsection (3)), then Section 200 shall be applicable. The public prosecutor may also file an application for publication of the conviction.
Section 104 Injury to Flags or National Emblems of Foreign States
(1) Whoever removes, destroys, damages, renders unrecognizable, or commits insulting mischief with a flag of a foreign state, which is displayed according to legal provisions or recognized custom, or a national emblem of such a state which has been publicly installed by a recognized mission of such state, shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than two years or a fine.
(2) An attempt shall be punishable.
Section 104a Prerequisites for Criminal Prosecution
Crimes under this section shall only be prosecuted if the Federal Republic of Germany maintains diplomatic relations with the other state, reciprocity is guaranteed and was also guaranteed at the time of the act, a request for prosecution by the foreign government exists, and the federal government gives authorization for criminal prosecution.
<...>
Section 130 Agitation of the People
(1) Whoever, in a manner that is capable of disturbing the public peace:
1. incites hatred against segments of the population or calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them; or
2. assaults the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning, or defaming segments of the population,
shall be punished with imprisonment from three months to five years.
(2) Whoever:
1. with respect to writings (Section 11 subsection (3)), which incite hatred against segments of the population or a national, racial or religious group, or one characterized by its folk customs, which call for violent or arbitrary measures against them, or which assault the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning or defaming segments of the population or a previously indicated group:
a) disseminates them;
b) publicly displays, posts, presents, or otherwise makes them accessible;
c) offers, gives or makes accessible to a person under eighteen years; or
(d) produces, obtains, supplies, stocks, offers, announces, commends, undertakes to import or export them, in order to use them or copies obtained from them within the meaning of numbers a through c or facilitate such use by another; or
2. disseminates a presentation of the content indicated in number 1 by radio,
shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.
(3) Whoever publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or renders harmless an act committed under the rule of National Socialism of the type indicated in Section 220a subsection (1), in a manner capable of disturbing the public piece shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than five years or a fine.
(4) Subsection (2) shall also apply to writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) with content such as is indicated in subsection (3).
(5) In cases under subsection (2), also in conjunction with subsection (4), and in cases of subsection (3), Section 86 subsection (3), shall apply correspondingly.
<...>
Section 131 Representation of Violence
(1) Whoever, in relation to writings (Section 11 subsection (3)), which describe cruel or otherwise inhuman acts of violence against human beings in a manner which expresses a glorification or rendering harmless of such acts of violence or which represents the cruel or inhuman aspects of the event in a manner which injures human dignity:
1. disseminates them;
2. publicly displays, posts, presents, or otherwise makes them accessible;
3. offers, gives or makes them accessible to a person under eighteen years; or
4. produces, obtains, supplies, stocks, offers, announces, commends, undertakes to import or export them, in order to use them or copies obtained from them within the meaning of numbers 1 through 3 or facilitate such use by another,
shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than one year or a fine.
(2) Whoever disseminates a presentation of the content indicated in subsection (1) by radio, shall be similarly punished.
(3) Subsections (1) and (2) shall not apply if the act serves as reporting about current or historical events.
(4) Subsection (1), number 3 shall not be applicable if the person authorized to care for the person acts.
<...>
Section 166 Insulting of Faiths, Religious Societies and Organizations Dedicated to a Philosophy of Life
(1) Whoever publicly or through dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) insults the content of others' religious faith or faith related to a philosophy of life in a manner that is capable of disturbing the public peace, shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.
(2) Whoever publicly or through dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) insults a church, other religious society, or organization dedicated to a philosophy of life located in Germany, or their institutions or customs in a manner that is capable of disturbing the public peace, shall be similarly punished.
<...>
Section 185 Insult
Insult shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than one year or a fine and, if the insult is committed by means of violence, with imprisonment for not more than two years or a fine.
Section 186 Malicious Gossip
Whoever asserts or disseminates a fact in relation to another, which is capable of maligning him or disparaging him in the public opinion, shall, if this fact is not demonstrably true, be punished with imprisonment for not more than one year or a fine and, if the act was committed publicly or through the dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)), with imprisonment for not more than two years or a fine.
Section 187 Defamation
Whoever, against his better judgment, asserts or disseminates an untrue fact in relation to another, which maligns him or disparages him in the public opinion or is capable of endangering his credit, shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than two years or a fine, and, if the act was committed publicly, in a meeting or through dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)), with imprisonment for not more than five years or a fine.
Section 188 Malicious Gossip and Defamation Against Persons in Political Life
(1) If malicious gossip (Section 186) is committed publicly, in a meeting or through dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) against a person involved in the political life of the people with a motive connected with the position of the insulted person in public life, and the act is capable of making his public work substantially more difficult, then the punishment shall be imprisonment from three months to five years.
(2) A defamation (Section 187) under the same prerequisites shall be punished with imprisonment from six months to five years.
Section 189 Disparagement of the Memory of Deceased Persons
Whoever disparages the memory of a deceased person shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than two years or a fine.
Section 190 Judgment of Conviction as Proof of Truth
If the asserted or disseminated fact is a crime, then the proof of the truth thereof shall be considered to have been provided, if a final judgment of conviction for the act has been entered against the person insulted. The proof of the truth is, on the other hand, excluded, if the insulted person had been acquitted in a final judgment before the assertion or dissemination.
Section 192 Insult Despite Proof of Truth
The proof of the truth of the asserted or disseminated fact shall not exclude punishment under Section 185, if the existence of an insult results from the form of the assertion or dissemination or the circumstances under which it occurred.
Section 193 Safeguarding Legitimate Interests
Critical judgments about scientific, artistic or commercial achievements, similar utterances which are made in order to exercise or protect rights or to safeguard legitimate interests, as well as remonstrances and reprimands of superiors to their subordinates, official reports or judgments by a civil servant and similar cases are only punishable to the extent that the existence of an insult results from the form of the utterance of the circumstances under which it occurred.
Section 194 Application for Criminal Prosecution
(1) An insult shall be prosecuted only upon complaint. If the act was committed through dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) or making them publicly accessible in a meeting or through a presentation by radio, then a complaint is not required if the aggrieved party was persecuted as a member of a group under the National Socialist or another rule by force and decree, this group is a part of the population and the insult is connected with this persecution. The act may not, however, be prosecuted ex officio if the aggrieved party objects. The objection may not be withdrawn. If the aggrieved party dies, then the right to file a complaint and the right to object pass to the relatives indicated in Section 77 subsection (2).
(2) If the memory of a deceased person has been disparaged, then the relatives indicated in Section 77, par. 2, are entitled to file a complaint. If the act was committed through dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)) or making them publicly accessible in a meeting or through a presentation by radio, then a complaint is not required if the deceased person lost his life as a victim of the National Socialist or another rule by force and decree and the disparagement is connected therewith. The act may not, however, be prosecuted ex officio if a person entitled to file a complaint objects. The objection may not be withdrawn.
(3) If the insult has been committed against a public official, a person with special public service obligations, or a soldier of the Federal Armed Forces while discharging his duties or in relation to his duties, then it may also be prosecuted upon complaint of his superior in government service. If the act is directed against a public authority or other agency, which performs duties of public administration, then it may be prosecuted upon complaint of the head of the public authority or the head of the public supervisory authority. The same applies to public officials and public authorities of churches and other religious societies under public law.
(4) If the act is directed against a legislative body of the Federation or a Land or another political body within the territorial area of application of this law, then it may be prosecuted only with authorization of the affected body.
Единственное, что радует, так это:
Section 199 Insults Committed Reciprocally
If an insult is immediately reciprocated, then the judge may declare both insulters or one of them to be exempt from punishment.
http://www.iuscomp.org/gla/statutes/StGB.htm
Как говорит один юзер (который, вероятно, поспешит одобрить все вышеперечисленное) - "как все запущено!"
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
Не отдадим врагам родного языка!
Date: 2006-02-23 07:12 pm (UTC)Я так тоже говорю
no subject
Date: 2006-02-23 07:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-23 10:18 pm (UTC)There can be no crime of seditious libel in a free society.
У немцев действительно все запущено, но они никогда и не были особенно свободными.
В реальности, есть только бывшая Британская Империя плюс метрополия. И то с большими оговорками, как права групп в Англии.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-24 03:27 am (UTC)О!
Когда ООН и все прочие, включая Американских либералв, критикуют Америку за Гуантанамо, прослушивания и так далее - они плохо понимают, что даже, если к реальным нарушениям свобод в Америке добавить все воображаемые - и то тогда Америка не опустилась бы на уровень Европейских стран.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-24 11:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-24 11:50 pm (UTC)Однако, прослушивание - к нарушениям свободы не относится. По той же причине, по которой, если я начну кричать через улицу "Эй, Вася, давай теракт забубеним" - то у меня нету свободы не быть услышаным или подслушаным. То же касается обмену по радиоволнам. Эти послушивания могут только квалифицироваться как нарушения не свободы, но - закона. Однако, аргументация администрации, которая утверждает, что подслушивание, которое ведется не в порядке криминального расследования, а в порядке ведения войны - Конституционная прерогатива Президента - вполне разумна.
Что до Гуантанамо, то, хотя я, с одной стороны, полагаю, что никакие прицнипы там нарушены не были (включая все конвенции и так далее), но мне хотелось бы, чтобы там было больше контроля - чисто потому, что вероятность попадания человека, который, в действительности, комбатантом не был - существует. Правда, для этого нужно, чтобы Конгресс принял закон о как должен осуществляться Конгрессорский оверсайт за этим делом (регулировать это дело напрямую они не могут - войну ведет Президент). Но я бы предложил, чтобы Конгрессмены, которые получают для оверсайта доступ к секретной информации были обязаны проходить детектор лжи так же часто, как сотрудники ЦРУ.
Не знаю, чего меня так разнесло...
no subject
Date: 2006-02-23 10:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-23 11:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-24 05:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-23 11:39 pm (UTC)В самом деле, к нему принадлежали обе Клавдии: [...] и та, которая первой из женщин была обвинена перед народом в оскорблении величества, за то, что она, с трудом пробираясь на повозке сквозь густую толпу, громко пожелала, чтобы ее брат Пульхр воскрес и снова погубил флот, и этим поубавил бы в Риме народу.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-24 01:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-24 11:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-27 08:44 am (UTC)